《澳泰族群的遗传结构》（内容提要）

北姑

	http://blog.yam.com/yangtze/archives/cat_17530.html 至于漢藏語系壯侗語族民族則和其他漢藏人基因差異很大，甚至大于漢人和阿爾泰人的基因差因。白保羅更是單純從語言方面認爲壯侗語（侗台語）應屬于南島語系（馬來—波利尼西亞語系），事實上他也犯了一個錯誤——後來學者發現侗台語、漢藏語、南島語都是同源的語言，三者有很多共同的詞彙，只是南島語是雙音節語，而漢藏-侗台是單音節語，比如馬來語把竹子叫做“斑竹”bamboo（英語中借用了此詞），而古漢語則一般但用一個“竹”字。

北姑

	美國人類學家白保羅提出的澳泰語系，就是主張南島語系跟壯侗／侗台／泰／傣／台－卡岱合併成為單一系統耶。 白保羅應該沒有讀過中國歷史，不知道百越各有種姓的記載吧？百越種族多元，不過還是要歸納一個超越種族，以語言來歸類的澳泰語族耶。 澳泰語系正好滿足某些泛百越主義者的訴求，不過要他們認同馬來人與及黑種的南太平洋島民是同胞，是否一種矛盾呢？ 以白保羅的澳泰語系作為基因研究確實很有趣耶，不過就不要繞過越南人耶，若果研究結果是越南人跟壯侗人同種而只是不同語的話，到時又會有何結論呢？

北姑

	我以為沒有成功貼上，故重覆發文，因不能刪文，故煩請版主刪文，謹此致歉。

燎沙

	“百越各有種姓”，其中“种姓”的概念是怎么样的呢？不知哪位可以说明一下。 其中的“种”肯定不同于现在的人种概念，其中的“姓”也应该不同于现在的姓氏概念。

燎沙

	看过马来、南岛人影像资料的僚人、粤人，应该不难发现他们与咱们的共同之处。认同他们与咱们有共同的中古祖先，应该不是什么很尴尬的事。难道因为他们欠发达和曾经排华就认定他们跟咱们毫无关系？

北姑

	種就是人種的概念耶，百越範圍廣大，種族混血程度因地域而異耶，部份混有黑人成份耶，現在馬來人的種族特徵也很極端耶，有的有明顯的黑人混血耶。 現在台灣的雅美族，據考據來自菲律賓，人種也跟其他原住民有分別耶。 不單止馬來人，菲濟、新畿內亞、所羅門群島、新喀里多尼亞等地的黑人也屬於南島系統的耶，僚人會認同他們是兄弟乎？

北姑

	百越不止一種，是多元種族的系統，也不一定互相隸屬的耶。 矮黑人乃百越系統之內的種族構成之一元耶，粵人部份也有矮黑人特徵，不過有僚人就對此抗拒耶。

燎沙

	关键问题是：百越各支系是否有相同或相近的语言文化？ 远古时期的血统来源，该是什么就是什么，以科学检验的结果为准，这有什么好抗拒的呢？个别僚人的观点，不能等同多数僚人的观点，何况大多僚人是不上网的，而且上网的僚人多半是不知道僚人家园的，说明多数僚人还没有在这里表态，多数僚人或许不会抗拒自己与马来、南岛人有共同的祖先。

北姑

	百越至少有南島及泰／傣／壯侗／侗台／台－卡岱兩個系統，種族有黃種人及黑人，成份因地域而異耶，風俗應該有共同處耶，至於語言是否有共通就不清楚了。

南粤孤客

	尊重研究劳动，怀疑研究成果，深入进行科学研究！

燎沙

	以下是引用北姑在2006-6-6 18:29:21的发言： 百越至少有南島及泰／傣／壯侗／侗台／台－卡岱兩個系統，種族有黃種人及黑人，成份因地域而異耶，風俗應該有共同處耶，至於語言是否有共通就不清楚了。 有学者认为吴越语曾是多音节语言，不知你认为如何？

李辉

	我在我的主页上把网上可见的我的论文资源作了链接。大家可以阅读有关文章。特别是讲两个人种的那篇文章。我个人认为不要把棕色人种算入百越系统，要分清主次。www.daic.info

李辉

	山之凤兄是哪里找到的文字啊？复旦档案馆还把这篇论文暂时设定着保密期呢

北姑

	以下是引用燎沙在2006-6-6 19:05:52的发言： 有学者认为吴越语曾是多音节语言，不知你认为如何？ 吳人是楚越交界地的荊蠻遷入而被同化成為越人的耶，不奇怪耶。

北姑

	拉美尼西亞人屬南島語系成員乃外國人類學家與及語言學家的研究成果，這個就沒有能力置評耶。 除了澳大利亞土著之外，其他所有的太平洋黑人都屬於南島系統的耶。 不過於百越或南島等族群形成之時，已經磚融合了此種人種成份的耶。

山之凤

	以下是引用李辉在2006-6-7 5:12:07的发言： 山之凤兄是哪里找到的文字啊？复旦档案馆还把这篇论文暂时设定着保密期呢 未征得贝侬同意就擅自贴上来，贝侬不会介意吧？会不会有侵权之嫌？贝侬在学术上独树一帜，卓有成就，在下久仰！至于您的大作，会不会是您喝醉了被人偷出来？

山之凤

	我爱你。 Knu qayNon. 李先生：你们上海话“Knu”中的“n”发音明显吗？感觉和僚语的“我（gou或gu）”发音有点象。

北姑

	http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/june/austronesianLanguageFamily.html The Austronesian (Malayo-Polynesian) Language Family Overview and history The Austronesian (Malayo-Polynesian) language family covers a wide geographic area, from Madagascar to Easter Island, and from Taiwan and Hawai'i to New Zealand. This geographic spread is the reason why this family of languages is alternatively called Malayo-Polynesian. Austronesian is one of the largest language families in the world, both in terms of the number of languages (1244) and in terms of its geographical extent. Austronesian languages are spoken by approximately 300 million people in Madagascar, the Malay Peninsula, Indonesia and New Guinea, the Philippines, Taiwan, the Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesian islands, and New Zealand. Today four Malayo-Polynesian languages have official status in four countries. These languages are widely spoken and understood as native or as second languages in their respective countries. Malagasy, in Madagascar Malay, in Malaysia Indonesian (also called Bahasa Indonesia, a language based on Malay), in Indonesia Pilipino (based on Tagalog), in the Philippines. Despite extensive research into Austronesian languages in the past several decades, their origin and early history remain largely unknown. Several competing theories of classification remain a matter of controversy to this day. Because there are many structural differences between the Austronesian languages, linguists estimate that they must have split from their common ancestor 4,000 or more years ago. It is thought that the original Proto-Malayo-Polunesian speakers came from a part of Asia near the Malay Peninsula and later migrated west as far as Madagascar and east to the Pacific. This migration probably began well over two thousand years ago. Because Malayo-Polynesian speakers lived on thousands of islands that were often widely separated, many dialects and, in time, languages evolved from the ancestral language, Proto-Malayo-Polynesian. The Austronesian language family is usually divided into two branches: Malayo-Polynesian and Formosan. The Malayo-Polynesian branch is by far the largest of the two. It is traditionally divided into two main sub-branches. The Western sub-branch includes over 500 languages spoken in Madagascar, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, parts of Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, and Cambodia. Two languages of Micronesia (Chamorro and Palauan) are also included in this group. This branch represents over 300 million speakers and includes such widely spoken languages as Javanese, Malay, and Tagalog. The Central-Eastern sub-branch, sometimes referred to as Oceanic, contains around over 500 languages spoken in most of New Guinea, and throughout the 10,000 or more islands of Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia. Despite its diversity and geographic spread, this branch represents slightly under 2 million speakers. The aboriginal languages of Australia and the Papuan languages of New Guinea are not included in this branch. It is worth noting that many of the languages included in the Austronesian family have only a handful of speakers each, especially in Melanesia, where the average is roughly one language for every 1,500 people. Many of the languages are endangered, on the brink of extinction, and some of them are already extinct. Below is a list of the Austronesian languages with the largest number of speakers in their respective branches. Language Number of speakers Where spoken primarily Malayo-Polynesian (1239 languages) Western (531 languages) Javanese 75,508,300 Indonesia Sunda (Sundanese) 27,000,000 Indonesia Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) 23,143,354 Indonesia Cebuano 20,043,502 The Philippines Malay 17,604,253. Malaysia Tagalog (Pilipino) 15,900,098. The Philippines Ilokano 8,000,000 The Philippines Minangkabau 6,500,000 Sumatra, Indonesia Malagasy (Plateau) 6,000,000 Madagascar Banjar 5,900,000 Indonesia Bali 3,900,000 Indonesia Malay Pattani 3,100,000 Thailand Ace (Acehnese) 3,000,000 Indonesia Sasak 2,100,000 Indonesia Malay Makassar 1,876,548 Indonesia Malagasy, Tsimiheti 1,100,000 Madagascar Central-Eastern (Oceanic) 706 languages Samoan 371,000 Samoa Fijian 330,000 Fiji Tahitian 124,000 Tahiti Tongan 105,000 Tonga Maori up to 70,000 New Zealand Kiribati 68,000 Kiribati Chamorro 62,000 Guam Marshallese 44,000 Marshall Islands Rapa Nui 3,500 Easter Island Hawai'ian 1,000 Hawai'i, U.S.A Formosan (all but 2 extinct) Amis 138,000 Taiwan Saisiyat 4,750 Taiwan Sound system The sound system of Austronesian languages is generally characterized by the following: simple syllabic structure, predominantly of the Consonant+Vowel type; only /n/ and /ng/ can occur at the end of syllables; abundance of vowels and a relatively small number of consonants. Grammar Malayo-Polynesian languages tend to have disyllabic roots, form derivatives by means of affixes, and use reduplication to indicate grammatical concepts. An interesting feature is the absence of verbs corresponding to the Englishverbs "to be" or "to have." An important aspect of Austronesian languages is the use of speech registers, or styles. Each style depends on social context and employs its own vocabulary, grammar, and even intonation. This feature is not unique to Austronesian languages since some Asian languages such as Korean, Japanese and Thai also use registers. Vocabulary The vocabulary of Austronesian languages is of common Malayo-Polynesian origin with borrowings from other languages such as Arabic, Sanskrit, Portuguese, Dutch, and English. The sources of borrowing vary from language to language. + Writing Writing systems vary, some being based on the Roman alphabet and others on alphabets derived from Indian or Arabic scripts. Numbers in five major Malayo-Polynesian languages Look at the numerals 1-10 in five Malayo-Polynesian languages Do you see any similarities across these languages? What differences do you see across these languages? Which two languages appear to be the closest? Tagalog Cebuano Ilokano Indonesian Malay Audio one isa usá maysa safu satu two dalawa duhá dua dua dua three tatlo tulú tallo tiga tiga four apat upát uppat empat empat five lima limá lima lima lima six anim unúm innem enam enam seven pito pitú pito tuju tujuh eight walo walú walo delapan lapan nine siyam siyám siam sembilan sembilan ten sampu napúlu sangapulo sepuluh sepuluh Click on the name of the language to learn more about it on this website Javanese Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) Malay (Bahasa Melayu) Malagasy Tagalog (Pilipino) Cebuano Ilokano Hawai'ian

北姑

	The Central-Eastern sub-branch, sometimes referred to as Oceanic, contains around over 500 languages spoken in most of New Guinea, and throughout the 10,000 or more islands of Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia. Despite its diversity and geographic spread, this branch represents slightly under 2 million speakers. The aboriginal languages of Australia and the Papuan languages of New Guinea are not included in this branch. =============================================== 美國政府的資料就是，南島語系等同馬來－玻里尼西亞語系耶，除了澳大利亞土著與及新畿內亞的巴布亞的語言之外，其他南太平洋的黑人的語言也屬於南島語系耶。 至於南島語系民族語言及血統上的關係就不清楚耶。

李辉

	1、吴越问题：我的网页上有篇文章讲上海的历史民族，吴族和越族来源不同，关系就像广西壮族和瑶族一样，甚至矛盾更深。 2、喝醉酒问题：鄙人因为信仰问题，是不能喝酒的 老兄显然在转移话题嘛！哈哈 3、太平洋部落问题：太平洋上的马来语族部落，虽然混杂了部分的巴布亚棕色人种成分，但是血统的绝大部分是黄种的，所以还是不要叫他们黑人为好。美拉尼西亚的泛新几内亚语系和伊里安岛的巴布亚语系，以及澳大利亚语系的人群则是棕色人种，虽然肤色很黑，但是与非洲黑人的遗传关系极其遥远，比黄种人与黑人的关系还远得多，所以也还是不要叫他们黑人，以免混淆概念。 4、“泛越主义”：个人认为有时候宗教渊源比民族渊源要重要得多。印尼人虽然是马来语族的外越人，但是他们的信仰使他们对中国人犯下了奸淫烧杀的滔天罪行，我们绝对不会对他们有亲近感的。 5、上海话我爱你:Kn是舌根鼻音，因为拼写的时候要避免连写歧义，所以不写作Ng。其实壮语里面的Ng相关的词汇反而在宕傣语里面对应为G。比如Ngang--Gorn傻。