侬智高失败后壮族和侬氏逃难与东南亚民族异化的关系

越色僚人

	以下是引用北姑在2006-1-26 12:51:55的发言： 北姑是否有錯並不重要耶，重要的是泰人是否同意大陸的就是正確的耶，這個北姑就無力置評耶，至於僚人是否可以置評呢？Sorry，北姑只可以作路人甲耶。 你又错了，学术的东西不是说谁同意才是正确的，现代人类包括中国人在内，都是非洲古人的后代，这是目前最权威的研究成果，并不因为大多数中国人认为自己是北京猿人的后代而拒绝承认这点可以改变。谁掌握最丰富的资料和最有力的证据，就可以置评。大陆的学者也不是个个都懂得壮泰老傣掸，而研究这方面的学者都是知道壮-泰语资料的，也有大量的史学证据，更懂得民族学、历史学的东西，我虽然也不是专业水平，但是比北姑你多了几个强项，如母语壮语，如学习过泰语，如研习过语言学、民族学的常识，我当然可以从逻辑上评判哪些研究成果是合理的，哪些是牵强的。

北姑

	http://www.asia-art.net/thai_ceramic.htm T H A I C E R A M I C S Thai ceramics are ranked among the finest in the world. Because of the small number of remaining written records, ceramics have helped historians to find out more about the history of the Thai people. Ban Chiang : Prehistoric Pottery Ban Chiang is on the Korat Plateau in north eastern Thailand. It is the plateau where the discovery of beautiful thousands year-old pottery were found. Previously this area was thought to be an uncivilized backwater, although it actually possessed a highly developed culture that had a great impact on the whole region. The deepest levels at Ban Chiang can be dated to B.C. 3,600. The early pots are undecorated or have simple pressed or incised patterns. The ones from later periods are superbly shaped vessels of buff color clay decorated with swirling, fingerprint-like designs. Besides pots, Ban Chiang made many types of ceremics such as vases, jars, animal figurines, ladles, crucibles, phalli, spindle whorls and beads. Unglazed, low-fired pottery has been found at other sites throught Thailand. One of the major ones is at Ban Kao in Kanchanaburi province, north eastern of Thailand. From Ban Kao, the historians found distinctive earthenware pieces including tripod vessels with hollow tapering legs. Another site with particular fine examples was unearthed in the 1980's at Ban Prasat. Ban Prasat ware is typically in black or red clay. The pieces have less decoration than Ban Chiang, but the shapes are equally distinctive. When Ban Chiang wares first appeared, they were priced very high in the antique markets of the world. This resulted in a flood of cleverly repaired and repainted pieces as well as "genuine fakes". The fake Ban Chiang pieces were made in the same way and from the same materials by skilled craftsmen. It is extremely difficult to tell the real from the false without examination by an expert. Sukothai Kiln The Thai people were thought to have moved south from China moving down from South China into Vietnam, Laos and finally theChaopaya River Basin. There then followed a long period of Khmer rule. The Thai people finally broke free from the Khmer yoke in the 13th century. The Great Thai King Ramkamhaeng of Sukothai was the founder of the modern state and was the King that brought potters from China to set up the famous Sukothai kiln. Around 1300, Sukothai established itself as one of the more important Thai kingdoms. The quality of the ceramics improved during this period and the demand for fine ceramics, from ceremonial use to building materials increased greatly. There were kilns at various places like Pa Yang, Goh Noi, Sukothai Town, Pitsanuloke and Nakorn Thai. In some of these places, the historians found that many kilns were built, especially at Goh Noi, the oldest site. It is estimated that there were betweem 600 to 800 kilns built over the centuries thoughout this region. Si Satchanalai or Sawankaloke Kilns There are also records of the kilns of Si Satchanalai that are believed by some to have started even before Sukothai kiln, perhaps as early as the C10th. This is the Goh Noi and Pa Yang Kiln Sites. Their Domestic wares included: Earthenware - coarse, sandy earthenware shards with cord-marked, stamped or incised decorations; round-bottomed pots, kendis and jars. Unglazed Stoneware - reddish or gray bodies, unglazed stonewares. Some of them were partially glazed with fly-ash from the fuel; vases with wide, flat shoulders and narrowing down to a small button-foot, short neck and trumpet-shaped mouth. Mon Wares - roughly made from iron-black clay full of impurities, dishes have flat bottoms, non-glazed on outside, rich olive glaze. Underglaze black - large dishes with underglaze black decoration, well drawn floral or fish design in the center, thinly potted. There were stem-trays, bowls, kendis and animals, mythological and human figurines. Celadons - high-fired stonewares, covered with a natural feldspathic, wood-ash glaze with iron. Colors are dark Jade greens or deep olive-green, but can vary to nearly white, gray, honey yellow or brown. The best celadons of Sawankaloke are a beautiful sea-blue-green. Since celadon glaze is difficult to control and has a critical maturing point above which it melts, the glaze is often not applied down to the foot. If applied to the foot, it tends to run down unevenly and thickly and might stick to the support. Celadons are heavily potted dishes, bowls and stem-trays. Underglaze Black Decorated Wares - finely potted, thin, transparent glaze or grayish, with green or milky blue tinge, brownish black or gray black underglaze iron decoration. There are covered boxes, mostly round boxes in different sizes from three to eighteen centimeters. Some are in the shape of a bird, frog or crab. Floral or leaf decoration are common. Brown and Pearl Incised Wares - applied brown glaze only, the pattern was incised into the body. There are covered boxes and miniature jars. Brown Wares - rich honey or dark brown glaze, similar look to celadons but range is much smaller. The common objects are small pear or gourd shaped vases with two handle. There also are bowls and jars. White Wares - white glaze both in cream and white, heavily potted, similar to celadons. Later Ceramic Wares: Singburi and Ayuthya Wares The great years of the ceramics industry of Thailand clearly fell between the 14th century and the middle of the 16th century. This was a period of great prosperity both for Ayuthya and LanNa in the north of Thailand. During the later Tak period, historian found more remaining ceramics from Sukothai , Lan Na and the Golden Age of Ayuthya periods. In 1569 during a large Burmese attack, many constructions were destroyed and resulted in the end of the great Sukothai ceramic industry. The new kilns were built at Singburi around the year 1600, but produced only coarse utilitarian goods. Chinese wares were imported into the country to fulfill the need for pottery and porcelain. Many types of earthenware and stoneware were made in Singburi during the Ayuthya capital period. Generally, Singburi wares were jars with looped handles, covered with a lack-lustre brown glaze. In 1767, there was another attack from Burma which caused many kilns to be destroyed and greatly decreased production of Thai ceramics from this area.

季人

	“侬智高是儒家子弟,因为他的祖公侬猷是山东青州人,带来中原文化传教子孙。”听说过不少壮族家谱声称祖先是从山东来打侬智高的，没想到农家家谱也说侬智高祖先是从山东来的。按照这种说法，当年在岭南上演的竟然是“山东人打山东人”的一幕。 又，史书上多称侬氏为“广源蛮”。

北姑

	以下是引用越色僚人在2006-1-26 13:01:45的发言： 你又错了，学术的东西不是说谁同意才是正确的，现代人类包括中国人在内，都是非洲古人的后代，这是目前最权威的研究成果，并不因为大多数中国人认为自己是北京猿人的后代而拒绝承认这点可以改变。谁掌握最丰富的资料和最有力的证据，就可以置评。大陆的学者也不是个个都懂得壮泰老傣掸，而研究这方面的学者都是知道壮-泰语资料的，也有大量的史学证据，更懂得民族学、历史学的东西，我虽然也不是专业水平，但是比北姑你多了几个强项，如母语壮语，如学习过泰语，如研习过语言学、民族学的常识，我当然可以从逻辑上评判哪些研究成果是合理的，哪些是牵强的。 可以下定論嗎？取得一致共識乎？否則的話，還不是雞同鴨講乎？ 你有自己的”邏輯”、”合理”，人家也有人家的耶。 就好像朝鮮歷史一樣搞笑耶。

季人

	一定范围内的共识还是有的。50多位中泰学者（其中泰方32人）合作进行历时13年的“壮泰民族传统文化比较研究”已有初步成果面世，得出壮泰民族“同源异流”的结论。

越色僚人

	以下是引用季人在2006-1-26 13:03:21的发言： “侬智高是儒家子弟,因为他的祖公侬猷是山东青州人,带来中原文化传教子孙。”听说过不少壮族家谱声称祖先是从山东来打侬智高的，没想到农家家谱也说侬智高祖先是从山东来的。按照这种说法，当年在岭南上演的竟然是“山东人打山东人”的一幕。 又，史书上多称侬氏为“广源蛮”。 据我所知，农贤生先生对侬智高的研究，从来没有摆脱过家谱虚拟远祖的思想禁锢。

北姑

	壯泰同源應該沒有疑問吧？泰國人也同意耶，不過泰人先民直接從嶺南進入泰國湄公河盤地的說法就．．．．．． 否認泰人雲南源出說的也就．．．．．．．

北姑

	http://huaxia.com/wh/mjwh/00225372.html 中泰学者13年研究成果:壮泰"同源异流" ４０多位中泰学者历经１３年的奋斗，对壮泰民族传统文化进行全面比较后得出结论：壮、泰民族本是“同源”，后在长期的发展中形成各自特色，产生并行发展的“异流”，并最终成为了两个民族。全面展示这一研究成果的五卷本《壮泰民族传统文化比较研究》近日由广西人民出版社集结成书。 《壮泰民族传统文化比较研究》一书是《壮学从书》首批出版的重点项目，由广西民族研究学会和泰国艺术大学的学者共同合作完成。全书分别从地理环境、体质特征、考古文化、语言文字、生产习惯等１５个方面介绍壮族和泰族的传统文化并进行比较研究，最后进行了归纳与讨论。内容涉及地理学、地质学、人口学、民俗学、伦理学等多种学科，是有史以来对壮族和泰族传统文化规模最大、最全面系统的研究。 《壮泰民族传统文化比较研究》佐以大量考古学、历史学、体质人类学和文化人类学材料的印证，认为壮、泰民族共同起源于古代百越民族集团中的西瓯和骆越，他们原来共同生活的区域，主要在五岭以南到今越南红河以北地区；他们原来共同生活的时间主要在公元三世纪上半叶之前，他们分离的时间主要在中国历史上的三国两晋南北朝时期（公元３－６世纪）。后来其中的一部分迁徙到今泰国北部。由于受到不同文化的影响，才逐渐形成了壮族和泰族两个不同的民族。所以，壮、泰民族的起源和发展可以说是“同源异流”。 《壮泰民族传统文化比较研究》全书分五卷，共２８４万字，从多角度对壮泰民族的生产、生活进行了对照。读者可从中直观感受到壮族和泰族传统文化的共同性和相似性。（新华网 顾洪洪）

北姑

	《壮泰民族传统文化比较研究》佐以大量考古学、历史学、体质人类学和文化人类学材料的印证，认为壮、泰民族共同起源于古代百越民族集团中的西瓯和骆越，他们原来共同生活的区域，主要在五岭以南到今越南红河以北地区；他们原来共同生活的时间主要在公元三世纪上半叶之前，他们分离的时间主要在中国历史上的三国两晋南北朝时期（公元３－６世纪）。后来其中的一部分迁徙到今泰国北部。由于受到不同文化的影响，才逐渐形成了壮族和泰族两个不同的民族。 =================================== 中泰學者的共同研究結論都是，泰人先民是在泰北形成之後才遷入今泰國腹地的耶，那是否經雲南的呢？又還是直接從嶺南出發，而且還要是廣西乎？ 而一般的論點都是，泰人先民來自雲南，在泰北一帶分化成各支係的耶。

新桂系

	以下是引用季人在2006-1-26 13:03:21的发言： “侬智高是儒家子弟,因为他的祖公侬猷是山东青州人,带来中原文化传教子孙。”听说过不少壮族家谱声称祖先是从山东来打侬智高的，没想到农家家谱也说侬智高祖先是从山东来的。按照这种说法，当年在岭南上演的竟然是“山东人打山东人”的一幕。 又，史书上多称侬氏为“广源蛮”。 广西人的家谱大部分是编造的，如果相信家谱是真实的，那么广西原来就没有了土著人。个人的观点认为，之所以有那么多家谱认为其祖先来自山东，可能是因为狄青在宋朝带来一些山东子民，但是这绝对不能构成广西的主体居民。编造家谱的情况应该就在宋朝之后的事情，自农智高失败后，僚人受到朝廷的打压，这个民族逐步迷失了方向，也寻找不到自己的根或是不愿意正视自己的来源，为了科举考试、为了虚荣、为了升官，于是乎，跟随少部分山东裔的族群认为自己也来自山东。关于广西人的族谱，很多都被认为是自相矛盾的。 [此贴子已经被作者于2006-1-26 15:38:18编辑过]

越色僚人

	以下是引用北姑在2006-1-26 14:51:00的发言： 《壮泰民族传统文化比较研究》佐以大量考古学、历史学、体质人类学和文化人类学材料的印证，认为壮、泰民族共同起源于古代百越民族集团中的西瓯和骆越，他们原来共同生活的区域，主要在五岭以南到今越南红河以北地区；他们原来共同生活的时间主要在公元三世纪上半叶之前，他们分离的时间主要在中国历史上的三国两晋南北朝时期（公元３－６世纪）。后来其中的一部分迁徙到今泰国北部。由于受到不同文化的影响，才逐渐形成了壮族和泰族两个不同的民族。 =================================== 中泰學者的共同研究結論都是，泰人先民是在泰北形成之後才遷入今泰國腹地的耶，那是否經雲南的呢？又還是直接從嶺南出發，而且還要是廣西乎？ 而一般的論點都是，泰人先民來自雲南，在泰北一帶分化成各支係的耶。 北姑引述的这段话，正好否认了泰人来源于云南的说法。从岭南到泰老，对于水边民族的骆越人来说，最便捷的途径是经过红河流域顺流而上，而不可能翻越崇山峻岭的桂西边地和云贵高原。

越色僚人

	以下是引用北姑在2006-1-26 14:33:07的发言： 壯泰同源應該沒有疑問吧？泰國人也同意耶，不過泰人先民直接從嶺南進入泰國湄公河盤地的說法就．．．．．． 否認泰人雲南源出說的也就．．．．．．． 否认泰人源于云南，这并没有什么大不了的，这是最新的研究成果，已经被越来越多的学者所正视和接受。云南傣人是泰北老挝一带的大泰人朔源而上形成，泰国的小泰人也是泰北老挝的大泰人分化南下形成，这是最令人信服的说法。

北姑

	以下是引用越色僚人在2006-1-26 15:34:28的发言： 北姑引述的这段话，正好否认了泰人来源于云南的说法。从岭南到泰老，对于水边民族的骆越人来说，最便捷的途径是经过红河流域顺流而上，而不可能翻越崇山峻岭的桂西边地和云贵高原。 呵呵，很有趣的經濟邏輯說耶，不過可惜中泰學者並沒有作出此結論耶，我也想知道他們同意否耶。

越色僚人

	以下是引用北姑在2006-1-26 15:37:29的发言： 呵呵，很有趣的經濟邏輯說耶，不過可惜中泰學者並沒有作出此結論耶，我也想知道他們同意否耶。 嗬嗬，北姑不妨提出他们不同意的证据。

北姑

	如此說來，會否壯人及泰人先民其實就是共同源自紅河三角洲的乎？比”經過說”更加何乎邏輯耶，駱越就是發源於此耶，也是交趾人的主要成份耶。 南壯不就是北泰嗎？

北姑

	以下是引用越色僚人在2006-1-26 15:39:47的发言： 嗬嗬，北姑不妨提出他们不同意的证据。 呵呵，我只是看到他們同意泰人先民形成於泰北的論點耶，至少他們是否有更進一步的觀點，就不知道耶，尼既然懂壯語及一點泰語，應該可以做其代言人乎？

越色僚人

	所谓北泰，是指整个壮族和布依族，并非单指南壮。台语支分为西南、中部和北部三组。西南组即傣-泰各族语，中部组即南壮语和岱-侬语，北部组即北壮语和布依语。 壮族分为南北两大方言，壮语北部方言和南部方言先分化，南壮和泰老再分化，这是大多数研究壮泰语的专家都很清楚的事情。从历史语言学证据上来看，可以推测出，南越国政权崩溃后，骆越人的一支迁入现在的越南红河三角洲地区，逐渐形成南部支系（即现在南壮和泰老的直系祖先），留在两广一带的演化为北部支系（即现在北壮和布依的直系祖先），并进而迁入桂西滇东北和贵州省。后来越南人祖先交址人北上，驱逐了原来的骆越人南部支系，这些人大部分向西迁徙，进入现在的泰北，逐步演化为现在的傣-泰族系，一部分则北迁到现在越南北部山区和广西西南部山区，形成南壮和岱-侬族。

北姑

	http://www.thaiworldview.com/art_hist.htm Khmer empire Before any Thai kingdom, there were Khmer kingdoms. Khmer empire was made of actual Cambodia, Laos and a big part of Thailand. Some towns like Lopburi, Phimai still have Khmer ruins. In all northeastern area there are many old Khmer ruins not all in good condition. The major ones are in Phimai (near Nakhon Ratchasima) and Phanom Rung (near Buriram). The most beautiful Khmer ruins outside Cambodia can be seen in Thailand. Phimai sanctuary Sukothai In 1238 Sukhotai kingdom was created. It did last until 1438. This period is well known for the Sukhotai Buddha statues that are very beautiful. Some can be seen at the National Museum or "WAT BENCHAMABOPHIT" in Bangkok. Almost all monuments are made of light bricks. So they didn't resist to monsoons over centuries. The ruins in old cities of Sukhotai, Kampeang Phet, Sri Sichanalai are worth visiting. Sukhotai Old city of Sukhotai has been recognised by UNESCO as a treasure of humanity. The famous King Rama Khampheng was the first to write with the first known representation of Thai writing. He says that Thai people do not starve because they have rice in the fields and fish in the rivers. Sukhotai was absorbed by the rival kingdom of Ayuthaya. Ayuthaya Ayuthaya was a great kingdom. Its capital had more than one million of inhabitants, i.e. more than in European capitals at the same time. Kingdom of Ayuthaya had diplomatic relations with European countries such as Portugal and France. Some Thai diplomats went to France in 1687 to the royal court of Louis XIV, the French King who did build Versailles. They arrived by boat in the French town called Brest. Since this time the major avenue of Brest is called rue de Siam which means "Siam street". Kingdom of Ayuthaya was always in war with Burmese, Laotian and Khmer kingdoms. Ayuthaya Suriyothai, Queen of Ayutthaya, is the queen who fought and died to protect her husband and king's life while advancing into battle against the invading Burmese battalion in the 14th century. King Naresuan is famous for having a duel on elephants with the Burmese Crown Prince and won against him. King Naresuan regained independence from Burma for the Ayuthaya kingdom. Nai Khanom Tom was a famous Thai boxer, who, having been captured by the Burmese, regained his freedom by defeating nine of the enemy's gladiators in a contest witnessed by the Burmese king. Ayuthaya defeated Khmer kingdom and seized the mythic town Angkor in 1431. More than 37 wars opposed Burma and Siam during three centuries. Finally Ayuthaya was defeated in 1767 by Burma. Ayuthaya was complete destroyed, Buddha statues were molten in order to get the gold. Still nowadays the old remaining ruins can be visited. Chakri dynasty In 1782 General Taksin succeeded to beat the Burmese Kingdom. He did establish a new capital Thonburi. After Taksin's death, Rama I became the first king of the Chakri dynasty. He did establish a new capital Bangkok on the other shore of the river Chao Praya. Wat Phra Kaew Rama IV is very famous. His name was Monkgut. Before being king, he was a monk until 45 years old. He was very clever and even calculated the date of an eclipse. Pitiful he caught malaria when observing this eclipse. Rama V (dead in 1910) is known as the King Chulalongkorn. He is still highly worshipped in Thailand. His statue is at "Ratchadamnoen avenue" near Dusit Throne Hall. Every year, on the 23th october, there is a huge crowd for his birthday celebration. He is famous because he worked for the improvement of Thailand in the modern world. Bang Pa In Rama V is the one who made school mandatory for all, suppress slavery, transform the administration to match with foreign administration. It was the only way to escape from the invasion of colonial French and English troops. It was to show them that Thailand was a modern country. But he did not succeed to avoid territorial cuts, i.e. France did take Laos and Cambodia west part that were under Thai rules and also southern provinces that were taken by English troops. He is the one which brought many foreign customs (table, chair, fork, spoon, woman with long hairs) in Thailand. He also sent his children abroad in order that they studied foreign methods and then came back in Thailand to support him. 23 October is Rama V 's day ( วันปิยมหาราช) and is a public day to commemorate the Rama V or Chulalongkorn wise reign over Thailand. Rama V The Paknam Incident on July 13, 1893 is remembered as a dispute over a large part of Laotian territory on the banks of the Mekong River and led to a military clash between Siam and France on the Chao Phya River near Bangkok. Siamese troops opened fire on French gunboats sent up the river to Bangkok. The French fired back. The battle ended with the loss of 151 Siamese soldiers and 32 French troops. The Treaty of Peace and Convention between France and Siam was signed in Bangkok on October 3. Under the pact, Siam had to renounce all rights to the territories on the left bank of the Mekong (about 143,800 square kilometres) and to all islands in the river. Before Thai kings have several wives and queens. There was a rank between all his wives. That is why after 5 generations , all royal status disappear because there will be too many people with a royal status. Nowadays the king acts as normal person and has one wife. Before Thailand was called kingdom of Siam. It has changed the name in 1933. Actual King is Rama IX who became king in 1946. Rama IX Thai revolutions A bloodless revolution in 1932 put an end to absolute monarchy in Thailand and led to a constitutional monarchy. October 14, 1973, October 6, 1976, and Black May 1992 are major dates in Thai history for the struggle for democracy. The Thai army has shot on Thai people on these three events. There has never been any formal apology. Each time the Thai army has said it could never happen again. Between 1963 and 1973 Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn presided over a repressive military regime which was overthrown by pro-democracy students who suffered scores of casualties the 14 October 1973. FM Thanom is also at the origin of the Thammasat university massacre. His return in 1976 from overseas exile in the robes of a monk provoked the anger of students. This leaded to the 6 october 1976 massacre in Thammasat university where 300 students were killed by soldiers. Military argued that these students were a communist threat for the country. After the massacre many students joined the PLAT (Popular Liberation Army Thai) and fought until the amnesty in the 1980's. Black May in 1992 happened when pro-democracy protesters were brutally suppressed by military forces under army commander Gen Issarapong Noonpakdi. In the attack on protesters demanding Gen Suchinda Kraprayoon step down as Prime Minister, 48 died and 44 went missing, according to official accounts. In march 1999 complaints arose due to the appointment of FM Thanom Kittikachorn as a special royal guard. FM Thanom Kittikachorn is remembered as one the men who crushed the 1973 pro-democracy uprising in which 77 people were killed and 800 injured. Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai, facing protests against his decision to award a former dictator a military honour, plans to set up a special committee to review the historical record of the October 14, 1973, uprising. Chuan Leekpai has built his political credentials largely on being a dedicated fighter in the battle for democracy. And so it is ironic that it should be he, as defence minister, who appointed FM Thanom Kittikachorn to an honorary position with the army. This page has been updated on Wednesday, January 18, 2006

越色僚人

	北姑何必花费心思去搜罗网络资料来反对自己坚持的泰人源自云南说呢？你引述的上述英文资料，都明白无误的表明，泰人最早的政权是在侬智高兵败之后的。之前泰人在哪里呢？呵呵。

北姑

	歷史的編造真是完美的耶，明明連越南歷史本身也記載，交趾人主體就是駱越人耶，即使蜀人入主建安陽國，與及南越國侵略之後，也沒有改變耶。 越南的擴張是北向南的耶，夜趾人向占城及真臘地區擴張的耶。 歷史記載得非常清楚，交趾及九真的都是駱越種，斷髮文身的耶，到了林邑及以南地方就是崑崙種，鬈髮黑皮，即馬來種的占人耶。