南京都来贵州寻根，吴越人也该来僚乡寻根了！[僚人家园]——壮族、布依族、岱侬族共同论坛『Goek Raeuz 越僚史地』

北姑发表于 2005-12-22 12:10:00

還有回輝話呢，乃屬於馬來語系的占城話耶。

Haeuxseng 发表于 2005-12-22 12:30:00

姑姑的话似乎不对吧？没听说过吴越是百越的源头这样的话。一味的以为强就是头了，这是什么想法啊！

路发表于 2005-12-22 12:47:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用北姑在2005-12-16 10:11:21的发言： 吳越乃百越的源頭耶，應該是僚人到吳越尋根耶。</DIV>
强烈反对北姑的这个论断。吴越及岭南一带其它越族人应该是同根生的兄弟民族，并不能说吴越就是百越的源头。只是吴越与华夏文明在地理上较为接近，并参加了中原的称霸，而为华夏民族所认知，并载入史册。而岭南及西南的越人在早期因没有与华夏民族进行接触而没有史料记载，但并不等于他们的古代文明就不存在耶（咦，我怎么也说“耶”了）。

毕兹卡 发表于 2006-1-14 02:27:00

古时岭南,那里人类生活特别困难,所以人口是非常少的,那时繁华的中原人口也不多;
岭南最早的是小黑人,后来九黎从中原经湖南迁来,后来越人迁来,黎(俚)人再南迁到海南岛.
而临高人是在越人南迁时,在还未和壮\布依\水等民族分化时就迁到海南岛的越人.所以现在他们自己没有壮族认同,他们不属于黎人,故当然也不会有黎族认同.

毕兹卡 发表于 2006-1-14 02:30:00

三亚市羊栏镇的回族人,是从越南占城迁来,但他们的语言不是占城语
是多音节阿拉伯语,变成单音节的语言.这个语言学界已有定论.

北姑发表于 2006-1-16 11:40:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用Haeuxseng在2005-12-22 12:30:20的发言： 
姑姑的话似乎不对吧？没听说过吴越是百越的源头这样的话。一味的以为强就是头了，这是什么想法啊！</DIV>


這個是中國歷史以吳越人作為百越的基準而已，越南歷史也是指祖先雒越來自長江以南一帶的耶。
北姑沒有能力去發掘事實，故只能夠引經據典耶。

北姑发表于 2006-1-16 11:44:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用路在2005-12-22 12:47:54的发言： 
强烈反对北姑的这个论断。吴越及岭南一带其它越族人应该是同根生的兄弟民族，并不能说吴越就是百越的源头。只是吴越与华夏文明在地理上较为接近，并参加了中原的称霸，而为华夏民族所认知，并载入史册。而岭南及西南的越人在早期因没有与华夏民族进行接触而没有史料记载，但并不等于他们的古代文明就不存在耶（咦，我怎么也说“耶”了）。</DIV>


我只能夠說中國歷史之中，百越這個概念是以吳越為始的耶，若果僚人、泰人或其他人有其他資料的話，北姑一樣會引用的耶，不過可惜沒有耶，連越南歷史也是如此說的耶。
而且也只是指文化而不是種族耶，中國歷史也沒有說嶺南百越是來自吳越地區的耶。
嶺南百越也接受了相當的楚國文化耶。

北姑发表于 2006-1-16 11:57:00

<DIV class=quote>以下是引用毕兹卡在2006-1-14 2:30:00的发言： 
三亚市羊栏镇的回族人,是从越南占城迁来,但他们的语言不是占城语
是多音节阿拉伯语,变成单音节的语言.这个语言学界已有定论.</DIV>


根據維基的資料，回輝話就是占城話的演變耶。
跟其他的馬來語一樣，占城話都是包括阿拉伯話成份的耶。

北姑发表于 2006-1-16 11:58:00

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utsul" target="_blank" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utsul</A>
Utsul
The Utsuls are a tiny ethnic group which lives on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China" target="_blank" >Chinese</A> island of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan" target="_blank" >Hainan</A>. They are thought to be descendants of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_people" target="_blank" >Cham</A> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee" target="_blank" >refugees</A> who fled their homeland in what is now southern <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam" target="_blank" >Vietnam</A> to escape from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annam" target="_blank" >Annamese</A> invasion.
While most of the Chams who fled Champa went to neighbouring <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia" target="_blank" >Cambodia</A>, a small business class fled northwards. How they came to acquire the name Utsul is unknown.
Although they are culturally distinct from their neighbours, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_government" target="_blank" >Chinese government</A> places them as members of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people" target="_blank" >Hui</A> nationality. They are speakers of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsat_language" target="_blank" >Tsat language</A>.

北姑发表于 2006-1-16 11:59:00

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsat_language" target="_blank" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsat_language</A>
Tsat language
Tsat (also known as Utsat, Utset, Huihui, Hui, or Hainan Cham) is a language spoken on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan" target="_blank" >Hainan</A> Island in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China" target="_blank" >China</A> by the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utsul" target="_blank" >Utsuls</A>. Tsat is a member of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayo-Polynesian_languages" target="_blank" >Malayo-Polynesian</A> group within the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages" target="_blank" >Austronesian</A> language family, and is related to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham" target="_blank" >Cham</A> languages, originally from the coast of present-day <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam" target="_blank" >Vietnam</A>.
Unusually for a Malayo-Polynesian language, Tsat has developed into a solidly <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_language" target="_blank" >tonal language</A>, probably as a result of areal linguistic effects and contact with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language" target="_blank" >Chinese</A>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hlai_language&action=edit" target="_blank" >Hlai</A>/<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Li_language&action=edit" target="_blank" >Li</A>, and the other tonal languages of Hainan.

北姑发表于 2006-1-16 12:24:00

<a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html" target="_blank" >http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html</A>
Tonality in Phan Rang Cham and Tsat<o:p></o:p>
The results presented concern the two Chamic languages which have had the greatest contact with tone languages, namely Phan Rang Cham and Tsat. These languages have been under the prolonged influence of Vietnamese and the Min dialects of Chinese respectively. These have undergone a great variety of phonological, morphological and syntactic changes in response to contact with tone languages and the development of bilingual communities that define the forefront of language change.
<o:p> </o:p>
Monosyllabicity<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Although the development of tonality in Asiatic languages is usually associated the simplification of the syllable onset and coda, in Chamic languages, we should first consider the process by which the monosyllables came into being (Haudricourt, 1954; Huffman, 1977; Thompson, 1976). Cham, like all other Malay languages had a characteristic disyllabic (two syllables) word structure. In this system, stress is typically even over both syllables and all vowels in the vowel inventory occur in both syllables. Even before contact with tonal Vietnamese or Chinese languages, we have important evidence for contact with speakers of non-tonal Mon-Khmer languages, confirming the presence of people related to the modern day Khmer living in what is today southern Việt Nam and the Mekong Delta before the arrival of the Cham in the 2nd century and certainly the Vietnamese in the 15th century. 
<o:p> </o:p>
The Mon-Khmer languages exhibit what has been called sesquisyllabicity. While the basic word is disyllabic, the stress has shifted to the second syllable and the vowel of the initial syllable, whatever it may have been originally, is reduced to a neutral schwa [ə], rendering the first syllable an appendage of the central second. This is an important transformation, since it sets the conditions for the loss of the initial syllable through continued weakening and the development of a monosyllabic tone language. 
 
The following chart shows the development from proto-Cham to <st1:place w:st="on">Western Cham</st1:place> (non-tonal) and Tsat, a fully tonal language:
<o:p> </o:p>
Syllable Reduction<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Proto-Cham W. Cham Tsat<a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html#_ftn1" target="_blank" >[*]</A><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
picah pacah tsa55 broken<o:p></o:p>
pluh pluh piu55 ten<o:p></o:p>
dadit tadi?<a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html#_ftn2" target="_blank" >[†]</A> thi?42 fan<o:p></o:p>
anak anə? na?24 child<o:p></o:p>
laŋit laŋi? ŋi?24 sky<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Phan Rang Cham Tonogenesis<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Initial Classes Resulting Register Resulting Tones<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line> High Tone (final glottal)
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line><v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line>Proto-Chamic High Register
Non-Voiced Obstruents High Tone (final non-glottal)
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line> Low Tone (final glottal)
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line><v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line>Proto-Chamic Low Register
Voiced Obstruents Low Tone (final non-glottal)
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Phan Rang Cham (Eastern Cham) exhibits incipient tonality, that is, many other distinguishing features of the syllable, such as final -h, have not quite disappeared, but it appears to show tonal variation consistent with the model (Han et al., 1992; Thurgood, 1996; Thurgood, 1999). This is not uncontroversial, however, and there are arguments against this model, citing little evidence for the projected loss of final -h and other markers in the future (Brunelle, to appear).
<o:p> </o:p>
Tsat Tonogenesis<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Initial Classes Resulting Register Resulting Tones<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line> 55 (final -h)
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line><v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line><v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line>Proto-Chamic High Register 24 (final glottal)
Non-Voiced Obstruents 33 (final voiced)
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line> 55 (final -h)
<v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line><v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line><v:line><v:stroke endarrow="block"></v:stroke></v:line>Proto-Chamic Low Register 42 (final glottal)
Voiced Obstruents 11 (final voiced)
<o:p> </o:p>
Tsat is spoken by 4 500 speakers on Hải Nam (海南) Island in southern China, Tsat is remarkable for having developed a full tonal system comparable to those of the Southern Min Chinese dialects. As seen in the syllable reduction chart above, Tsat is fully monosyllabic and fully tonal as well having syntactically transformed into what appears typologically as a Chinese language (Thurgood, 1992; Thurgood and Li, 2002; Thurgood and Li, to appear). <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Conclusion<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The data above allow an appreciation of the importance of the Mon-Khmer contact in the development of tones - the reduction from complete polysyllables to sesquisyllabic word roots set the stage for the acquisition of tone through further reduction of the vestigial syllable. This confirms contact between Mon-Khmer and Cham people was extensive prior to the arrival of the Vietnamese, and although most Cham fled the area of the Champa federation in the 15th century, the descendants of the Mon-Khmer remain as the indigenous population of the Mekong Delta (Kampuchea Krom) and the southern highlands. 
<o:p> </o:p>
The flight of Cham people to southern <st1:country-region w:st="on">China</st1:country-region>, inland Việt <st1:country-region w:st="on">Nam</st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Cambodia</st1:place></st1:country-region> was accompanied by further series of changes, each indicative of the new populations these refugees encountered. However, the development of all modern Cham languages can be traced back to the Champa federation period, and represent, in all their variations, a Malay language with considerable Mon-Khmer influence, thus providing linguists with a chronological benchmark for further study and anthropologists a window on the development of a population in the process of linguistic, religious, artistic and political differentiation. Further research could focus on the less studied Chamic languages, including Tsat, but also Jarai and Rhade, which are under considerable pressure as minority languages. Additionally, Western Cham in Cambodia and Eastern Cham in Việt Nam, while not official languages in any capacity, have achieved acceptance as vehicles of communication and education and are in various stages of standardization - a process which involves a certain amount of self-conscious tinkering with the language and would be of interest to socio-linguists. Another possibility would be the study of the disyllabic Jawi Malay languages of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region> near the Thai border and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Thailand</st1:place></st1:country-region> itself. These do not appear to have developed tonality despite centuries of Thai influence. If true, this may provide further evidence for the importance of syllable reduction in tonogenesis, confirming that Cham tonality is not merely a product of Vietnamese and Chinese influences, but instead, the end result of prolonged contact with Mon-Khmer peoples which made tonal developments possible.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Bibliography<o:p></o:p>
Brunelle M (to appear) Eastern Cham as a Register Language. Cornell University, Ithaca.
<o:p> </o:p>
Han PV, Edmondson J, and Gregerson K (1992) Eastern Cham as a tone language. Mon-Khmer Studies 20:31-43.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Haudricourt AG (1954) De l'origine des tons en vietnamien. Journal Asiatique 242:69-82.
<o:p> </o:p>
Huffman FE (1977) An Examination of Lexical Correspondences between Vietnamese and some other Austroasiatic Languages. Lingua 43:171-198.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thompson LC (1976) Proto Viet-Muong Phonology: Austroasiatic Studies II. Manoa: University Press of Hawai'i, pp. 1113-1204.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thurgood G (1992) From atonal to tonal in Utsat (a Chamic language of Hainan). Eighteenth Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society, pp. 145-156.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thurgood G (1996) Language contact and the directionality of internal "drift": The development of tone and register in Chamic. Language 71:1-31.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thurgood G (1999) From ancient Cham to modern dialects: Two thousand years of language contact and change. Manoa: University of Hawai'i Press.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thurgood G, and Li F (2002) Contact induced variation and syntactic change in the Tsat of Hainan. Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society.
<o:p> </o:p>
Thurgood G, and Li F (to appear) From Malay to Sinitic: The Restructuring of Tsat under Intense Contact. California State University, Chico.
<o:p> </o:p>
<DIV footnote-list"> 
<DIV>
<a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html#_ftnref1" target="_blank" >[*]</A> Tsat tones are represented by a sequence of two numbers. In this system, 1 is the lowest and 5 is the highest. Together both numbers represent the contour from one pitch level to another. 55 is a level high pitch, 33 is a level middle pitch, 24 is a rising tone etc... </DIV>
<DIV>
<a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html#_ftnref2" target="_blank" >[†]</A> ? = glottal stop</DIV></DIV>

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