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南京都来贵州寻根,吴越人也该来僚乡寻根了!

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发表于 2005-12-22 12:10:00 |只看该作者
還有回輝話呢,乃屬於馬來語系的占城話耶。

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发表于 2005-12-22 12:30:00 |只看该作者

姑姑的话似乎不对吧?没听说过吴越是百越的源头这样的话。一味的以为强就是头了,这是什么想法啊!


滥兮抃草滥予?昌桓泽予?昌州州湛。州焉乎秦胥胥,缦予乎昭澶秦踰渗。惿随河湖。
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23#
发表于 2005-12-22 12:47:00 |只看该作者
以下是引用北姑在2005-12-16 10:11:21的发言:
吳越乃百越的源頭耶,應該是僚人到吳越尋根耶。

强烈反对北姑的这个论断。吴越及岭南一带其它越族人应该是同根生的兄弟民族,并不能说吴越就是百越的源头。只是吴越与华夏文明在地理上较为接近,并参加了中原的称霸,而为华夏民族所认知,并载入史册。而岭南及西南的越人在早期因没有与华夏民族进行接触而没有史料记载,但并不等于他们的古代文明就不存在耶(咦,我怎么也说“耶”了)。


对于未来,我们无可预知!所以,我们不能因为对未来的不确定或自以为预知了未来所发生的事,而放弃了我们本应该要走的路!
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发表于 2006-1-14 02:27:00 |只看该作者

古时岭南,那里人类生活特别困难,所以人口是非常少的,那时繁华的中原人口也不多;

岭南最早的是小黑人,后来九黎从中原经湖南迁来,后来越人迁来,黎(俚)人再南迁到海南岛.

而临高人是在越人南迁时,在还未和壮\布依\水等民族分化时就迁到海南岛的越人.所以现在他们自己没有壮族认同,他们不属于黎人,故当然也不会有黎族认同.


富尼 岔,窝火 毕兹卡 网站 恩及(大家好欢迎光临土家族网站http://www.brassett.org.uk/tujia/chome.html(土家族语言文化网)
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发表于 2006-1-14 02:30:00 |只看该作者

三亚市羊栏镇的回族人,是从越南占城迁来,但他们的语言不是占城语

是多音节阿拉伯语,变成单音节的语言.这个语言学界已有定论.


富尼 岔,窝火 毕兹卡 网站 恩及(大家好欢迎光临土家族网站http://www.brassett.org.uk/tujia/chome.html(土家族语言文化网)
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26#
发表于 2006-1-16 11:40:00 |只看该作者
以下是引用Haeuxseng在2005-12-22 12:30:20的发言:

姑姑的话似乎不对吧?没听说过吴越是百越的源头这样的话。一味的以为强就是头了,这是什么想法啊!

這個是中國歷史以吳越人作為百越的基準而已,越南歷史也是指祖先雒越來自長江以南一帶的耶。

北姑沒有能力去發掘事實,故只能夠引經據典耶。


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27#
发表于 2006-1-16 11:44:00 |只看该作者
以下是引用在2005-12-22 12:47:54的发言:

强烈反对北姑的这个论断。吴越及岭南一带其它越族人应该是同根生的兄弟民族,并不能说吴越就是百越的源头。只是吴越与华夏文明在地理上较为接近,并参加了中原的称霸,而为华夏民族所认知,并载入史册。而岭南及西南的越人在早期因没有与华夏民族进行接触而没有史料记载,但并不等于他们的古代文明就不存在耶(咦,我怎么也说“耶”了)。

我只能夠說中國歷史之中,百越這個概念是以吳越為始的耶,若果僚人、泰人或其他人有其他資料的話,北姑一樣會引用的耶,不過可惜沒有耶,連越南歷史也是如此說的耶。

而且也只是指文化而不是種族耶,中國歷史也沒有說嶺南百越是來自吳越地區的耶。

嶺南百越也接受了相當的楚國文化耶。


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28#
发表于 2006-1-16 11:57:00 |只看该作者
以下是引用毕兹卡在2006-1-14 2:30:00的发言:

三亚市羊栏镇的回族人,是从越南占城迁来,但他们的语言不是占城语

是多音节阿拉伯语,变成单音节的语言.这个语言学界已有定论.

根據維基的資料,回輝話就是占城話的演變耶。

跟其他的馬來語一樣,占城話都是包括阿拉伯話成份的耶。


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发表于 2006-1-16 11:58:00 |只看该作者

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utsul

Utsul

The Utsuls are a tiny ethnic group which lives on the Chinese island of Hainan. They are thought to be descendants of Cham refugees who fled their homeland in what is now southern Vietnam to escape from Annamese invasion.

While most of the Chams who fled Champa went to neighbouring Cambodia, a small business class fled northwards. How they came to acquire the name Utsul is unknown.

Although they are culturally distinct from their neighbours, the Chinese government places them as members of the Hui nationality. They are speakers of the Tsat language.


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发表于 2006-1-16 11:59:00 |只看该作者

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsat_language

Tsat language

Tsat (also known as Utsat, Utset, Huihui, Hui, or Hainan Cham) is a language spoken on Hainan Island in China by the Utsuls. Tsat is a member of the Malayo-Polynesian group within the Austronesian language family, and is related to the Cham languages, originally from the coast of present-day Vietnam.

Unusually for a Malayo-Polynesian language, Tsat has developed into a solidly tonal language, probably as a result of areal linguistic effects and contact with Chinese, Hlai/Li, and the other tonal languages of Hainan.


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发表于 2006-1-16 12:24:00 |只看该作者

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html

Tonality in Phan Rang Cham and Tsat

The results presented concern the two Chamic languages which have had the greatest contact with tone languages, namely Phan Rang Cham and Tsat. These languages have been under the prolonged influence of Vietnamese and the Min dialects of Chinese respectively. These have undergone a great variety of phonological, morphological and syntactic changes in response to contact with tone languages and the development of bilingual communities that define the forefront of language change.

Monosyllabicity

Although the development of tonality in Asiatic languages is usually associated the simplification of the syllable onset and coda, in Chamic languages, we should first consider the process by which the monosyllables came into being (Haudricourt, 1954; Huffman, 1977; Thompson, 1976). Cham, like all other Malay languages had a characteristic disyllabic (two syllables) word structure. In this system, stress is typically even over both syllables and all vowels in the vowel inventory occur in both syllables. Even before contact with tonal Vietnamese or Chinese languages, we have important evidence for contact with speakers of non-tonal Mon-Khmer languages, confirming the presence of people related to the modern day Khmer living in what is today southern Việt Nam and the Mekong Delta before the arrival of the Cham in the 2nd century and certainly the Vietnamese in the 15th century.

The Mon-Khmer languages exhibit what has been called sesquisyllabicity. While the basic word is disyllabic, the stress has shifted to the second syllable and the vowel of the initial syllable, whatever it may have been originally, is reduced to a neutral schwa [ə], rendering the first syllable an appendage of the central second. This is an important transformation, since it sets the conditions for the loss of the initial syllable through continued weakening and the development of a monosyllabic tone language.

The following chart shows the development from proto-Cham to Western Cham (non-tonal) and Tsat, a fully tonal language:

Syllable Reduction

Proto-Cham W. Cham Tsat

  • picah pacah tsa55 broken

    pluh pluh piu55 ten

    dadit tadi?[†] thi?42 fan

    anak anə? na?24 child

    laŋit laŋi? ŋi?24 sky

    Phan Rang Cham Tonogenesis

    Initial Classes Resulting Register Resulting Tones

    High Tone (final glottal)

    Proto-Chamic High Register

    Non-Voiced Obstruents High Tone (final non-glottal)

    Low Tone (final glottal)

    Proto-Chamic Low Register

    Voiced Obstruents Low Tone (final non-glottal)

    Phan Rang Cham (Eastern Cham) exhibits incipient tonality, that is, many other distinguishing features of the syllable, such as final -h, have not quite disappeared, but it appears to show tonal variation consistent with the model (Han et al., 1992; Thurgood, 1996; Thurgood, 1999). This is not uncontroversial, however, and there are arguments against this model, citing little evidence for the projected loss of final -h and other markers in the future (Brunelle, to appear).

    Tsat Tonogenesis

    Initial Classes Resulting Register Resulting Tones

    55 (final -h)

    Proto-Chamic High Register 24 (final glottal)

    Non-Voiced Obstruents 33 (final voiced)

    55 (final -h)

    Proto-Chamic Low Register 42 (final glottal)

    Voiced Obstruents 11 (final voiced)

    Tsat is spoken by 4 500 speakers on Hải Nam (海南) Island in southern China, Tsat is remarkable for having developed a full tonal system comparable to those of the Southern Min Chinese dialects. As seen in the syllable reduction chart above, Tsat is fully monosyllabic and fully tonal as well having syntactically transformed into what appears typologically as a Chinese language (Thurgood, 1992; Thurgood and Li, 2002; Thurgood and Li, to appear).

    Conclusion

    The data above allow an appreciation of the importance of the Mon-Khmer contact in the development of tones - the reduction from complete polysyllables to sesquisyllabic word roots set the stage for the acquisition of tone through further reduction of the vestigial syllable. This confirms contact between Mon-Khmer and Cham people was extensive prior to the arrival of the Vietnamese, and although most Cham fled the area of the Champa federation in the 15th century, the descendants of the Mon-Khmer remain as the indigenous population of the Mekong Delta (Kampuchea Krom) and the southern highlands.

    The flight of Cham people to southern China, inland Việt Nam and Cambodia was accompanied by further series of changes, each indicative of the new populations these refugees encountered. However, the development of all modern Cham languages can be traced back to the Champa federation period, and represent, in all their variations, a Malay language with considerable Mon-Khmer influence, thus providing linguists with a chronological benchmark for further study and anthropologists a window on the development of a population in the process of linguistic, religious, artistic and political differentiation. Further research could focus on the less studied Chamic languages, including Tsat, but also Jarai and Rhade, which are under considerable pressure as minority languages. Additionally, Western Cham in Cambodia and Eastern Cham in Việt Nam, while not official languages in any capacity, have achieved acceptance as vehicles of communication and education and are in various stages of standardization - a process which involves a certain amount of self-conscious tinkering with the language and would be of interest to socio-linguists. Another possibility would be the study of the disyllabic Jawi Malay languages of Malaysia near the Thai border and Thailand itself. These do not appear to have developed tonality despite centuries of Thai influence. If true, this may provide further evidence for the importance of syllable reduction in tonogenesis, confirming that Cham tonality is not merely a product of Vietnamese and Chinese influences, but instead, the end result of prolonged contact with Mon-Khmer peoples which made tonal developments possible.

    Bibliography

    Brunelle M (to appear) Eastern Cham as a Register Language. Cornell University, Ithaca.

    Han PV, Edmondson J, and Gregerson K (1992) Eastern Cham as a tone language. Mon-Khmer Studies 20:31-43.

    Haudricourt AG (1954) De l'origine des tons en vietnamien. Journal Asiatique 242:69-82.

    Huffman FE (1977) An Examination of Lexical Correspondences between Vietnamese and some other Austroasiatic Languages. Lingua 43:171-198.

    Thompson LC (1976) Proto Viet-Muong Phonology: Austroasiatic Studies II. Manoa: University Press of Hawai'i, pp. 1113-1204.

    Thurgood G (1992) From atonal to tonal in Utsat (a Chamic language of Hainan). Eighteenth Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society, pp. 145-156.

    Thurgood G (1996) Language contact and the directionality of internal "drift": The development of tone and register in Chamic. Language 71:1-31.

    Thurgood G (1999) From ancient Cham to modern dialects: Two thousand years of language contact and change. Manoa: University of Hawai'i Press.

    Thurgood G, and Li F (2002) Contact induced variation and syntactic change in the Tsat of Hainan. Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society.

    Thurgood G, and Li F (to appear) From Malay to Sinitic: The Restructuring of Tsat under Intense Contact. California State University, Chico.


  • Tsat tones are represented by a sequence of two numbers. In this system, 1 is the lowest and 5 is the highest. Together both numbers represent the contour from one pitch level to another. 55 is a level high pitch, 33 is a level middle pitch, 24 is a rising tone etc...

  • [†] ? = glottal stop


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