[转帖]谈谈汉语和壮语的同源关系

山谷散人

	谈谈汉语和壮语的同源关系 谈谈汉语和壮语的同源关系 　　　- 南乡子 - 僮语属汉藏语系，且与汉语同属汉藏语系下的汉台语群。它与汉语的亲属关系远比汉语与藏语的关系接近。 僮语不但其大多数词汇来自汉语，就连发音也与汉语的差不多，两者的语法也是共同点大于不同点的。追根寻源，可以发现汉台语群、特别是汉语和僮语是有着共同源头的同种语言，或者至少可以说是这些语言中有不少具有共同源头的语言因素。所以，有不少人认为壮语实际上就是汉语的一种方言，或者跟汉语方言差不多，也许是有其道理的。 著名语言学家王力在其著作《汉语史稿》中证明了汉藏系诸语言有亲戚关系，并且指出：“在汉藏语系中，汉语和侗台语（含僮话），苗瑶语，暹罗语（泰语），越南语等的关系比较近些，和藏语，彝语，缅甸语等的关系比较远些。” 语言学家邢公畹是研究壮侗语族语言的老前辈，他在《汉语“子”“儿”和台语luk试释》中指出：“汉藏语系各支语言都是同一祖语中分化出来的。其中侗台语群（含壮语）中的各种语言在亲属关系上，跟汉语尤为接近。”《壮族通史》（壮族学者张声震主编）也认为，“这些看法，代表了中国语言学界多数人以及国外部分学者的观点。”当然，该书中也有一些明显不符史实以及也不科学的分析。 语法方面：僮语同汉语一样，都是主谓宾结构，且都是单音节的孤立语，原则上无语形的屈折，即无诸如单复数、人称、时态变化。“格”的关系等可以用语顺表示，原则上不用助词。语音结构体系与汉语相同；声母的对应规律，清浊为声调的区分，韵母系统中阴声韵、阳声韵和入声韵互相配合整齐对称，声调系统基本相同，对一个个的音节，都有高低的像音乐一样的声调。 这与汉藏语系藏缅语群中的藏语语法大不同。藏语有因人称代名词的“格”“数”的屈折，还有表动词时态等场合的语形变化。而且藏语的语法结构与日语朝鲜语相似，是主宾谓结构。 例如，“我读书”，无论是僮语、苗语、瑶语、黎语、越南语，还是泰语，次序都跟汉语的一样。而彝语、藏语则成了“我书读”。 有人常常拿修饰词在被修饰词之前还是之後作为汉语跟“壮语”的区别。其实，世界上不少语言，修饰词的位置并非只有要麽置于被修饰词之前要麽只能置于被修饰词之後的限定，也并非以此来划分民族，英语就是这样一个例子，法语也是如此，例如法语中既有放在中心名词后边的形容词，也有放在名词前边的形容词。因此用这点的不同来作语言不同的证据，其理由似乎有些勉强了。 其实，修饰词置于被修饰词之後也仅仅是僮语和现代汉语的不同。修饰词置于被修饰词之後还正是“僮语”源自古汉语、或者两者同源的证明。不能因为现代汉语的一些语法现象和僮语有些差别，就把这种差别当作僮语的特征，因为若将僮语和古汉语相比，就可能会发现两者的关系是非常紧密的。 史料表明，先秦时代的古汉语中就有修饰词置于被修饰词之後（当然也有置前）的用法。例如《尚书》周书·大诰篇中的“猷大诰尔多邦越尔御事”中的“猷大”意为“大猷”，《诗经》国风·周南篇中的“施于中谷”“施于中林”的“中谷”、“中林”，也是修饰词在後的表现，即为“谷中”“林中”之意。再比如，僮语常用类别+专名表示事务名称的类别和专名组合的次序，例如“树松”（现代汉语的意思是松树），而在古汉语里，则有与僮语相同的用法，例如《诗经》郑风·将仲子篇中的“无折我树杞”、“无折我树桑”以及“无折我树檀”中的我“树杞”、“树桑”、“树檀”分别是现代汉语的“杞树”、“桑树”以及“檀树”。 再比如表示动物性别的词与动物名称组合的次序，僮语是“名词+性别词”，如水牛公、鸡公，古汉语中也有不少这样的用法。汉语粤方言中至今仍有“鸡公”等用法。 至于人名地名，越上溯，修饰成分置後的例子也越多，例如人名，帝尧、帝喾、后稷（谷物之后，周王室之祖先神），公刘（周王室之祖先），以及殷代的如武丁、祖庚、帝辛等称呼。而地名也是如此，如殷墟的卜辞中就把“商丘”“雷丘”写作“丘商”“丘雷”的例子。数词为修辞语的场合，汉语中也是既可以置前，如“献一牛一羊”，也可以置後，如“献牛一羊一”。甲骨文中，“一牛”的用法和“牛一”的用法大概各占一半。至今，一些汉语方言，如白话、闽南话、甚至属于西南官话的桂林话中都或多或少地保留了这种古老的用法。 再比如接头词。一些地方如广西省武鸣县的僮话中有附加在代名词，时间场所词，动物名前的接头词，在现代汉语中已不常见，于是有“学者”也把这作为僮话不是汉语的根据。其实，古代汉语也有相同用法的接头词。例如冠于氏族、团体或者姓名之前的（黄帝）有熊氏，有虞氏，有易氏以及有若（孔子弟子之名），有司（役人）的接头词“有”；冠于地名之前的“句容”“句章”“都昌”“於潜”的“句”“都”“於”等接头词；冠于动物之前的“於兔”的“於”（《春秋左氏传》、《史记》）。 所以，僮语形容词置後这一现象既可能是深受古汉语的影响所至，也有可能是因为汉僮语言同属汉藏语系汉台语群，汉僮语言本来就同源。 这也是僮人与汉人同源，汉人祖先也是僮人祖先的一项重要证据。 如果这不是因为同源而是因为文化渗透的话，那麽，因数千年来汉文化一直占强势地位，一直影响着周边的少数民族，自然也会影响到少数民族的语言，因此与汉语接受了少数民族语言的用法相比，少数民族的语言接受了汉语的用法的可能性较大。如果说少数民族几千年来都在接受汉文化的影响，却能在这些用法上不但能保持自己的独立性，还能影响到汉语，并使古汉语接受了“僮语”的话，这是不合逻辑的，是说不过去的。历史上蒙古人常与汉人对抗，甚至还极力抵抗汉文化的侵蚀，而且蒙古语还是与汉语完全不同的、属于陵一语系，即阿尔泰语系的语言。可是，现代蒙古语，特别是东蒙地区的蒙古语却深受汉语的影响。现代蒙古语中含有大量汉语词汇甚至汉语语法。 壮话不但其语法与汉语语法大致相同，基本词汇中也都含有大量汉语词汇。基础词汇和基本语法是构成语言的基本要素，也是语言之间是否有亲戚关系，有共同祖源的重要根据。僮话中的基础词汇不一定都是从汉语借用来的，而很可能是与汉语同源的词汇。 《壮族通史》称：“我们从汉文古籍中发现大量的汉语词与与壮侗语族诸语言的语词有密切关系，运用词汇学、语义学、音韵学等的理论，并从词源学的角度加以分析研究，使我们认识到壮侗语族诸语言和汉语…到了今天已经有了相当大的差别，但是追根寻源，仍然可以发现不少有共同来源的语言因素，其中有关的词是最为重要的因素。······壮语中有不少基本语词与古代汉语词有密切关系，它们有的语音相似，词义相通，有的语音相通，词义相近，这些语词不仅壮、汉语是共同词，而且往往与壮侗语族其他语言的语词也相同。” 该书还列举了一些汉文古籍中使用的，如今是僮语、侗语等少数民族语言中的属于基本词的名词、动词和形容词，并指出，“如果认为这些（僮语里常用的基本词）都是汉语借词，显然是不妥当的。因为这部分词不仅在国内同语族的语言里有，甚至在国外的有关民族语言如泰语和老挝语也有。这些词，古代汉语和现代汉语的读音有了很大的变化，仅以僮语与现代汉语中对应的词比较，很难看出它们之间有什麽关系。如果以僮语与古代汉语有关的词进行比较，就不难看出它们之间有着密切的内在联系。僮语以及僮侗语族诸语言与汉语的关系已经是源远流长了。” 连壮话中的亲属称谓中也有很多与汉语的相同，甚至很多乡村的土壮话的亲属称谓也与汉语的相同，却与泰语的同。例如靖西壮话中的爷爷、哥；柳江壮话中的伯母、姑妈、姨妈、舅妈；忻城壮话中的叔、哥、姐等亲戚称谓。 至于“借词”，那就更受汉语的影响了。壮语里的旧借词，有来自汉语白话（即人们常说的“粤语”）的，也有来自汉语平话的，更老的借词，甚至来自所谓的古汉语平话。而新借词，则多数来自属于西南官话的桂柳话。一些偏僻地方的土壮语，也都有大量来自桂柳话的词汇。据范宏贵《壮族与泰族的历史渊源及迁徙》一文可知，在日常生活中运用壮话进行交流的壮族人在他们日常生活谈话中，汉语借词常达30—40%之多，在有关现代政治、经济等内容的谈话中，汉语借词往往达80%以上。老实说，广西卫视播放十分钟的壮语新闻，我这个平常生活中从未听到过“壮语”的壮语盲都能听得一些懂，呵呵。 史料表明，古越人之语言就是汉语，《荀子》载：于越夷貉之子，生而同声，长而异俗，教使之然也”。而《荀子·荣辱篇》还说：“越人安越，楚人安楚，君子安雅。”又在《儒效篇》说“居楚而楚，居越而越，居夏而夏，是非天性也，积靡使然也。”“雅”就是“夏”，即华夏中原之人或地。这些话就是说，同一民族的人，居住在越地的就是越人，居住在楚地的就是楚人，居住在夏地的则为夏人。 这说明史料中关于越也为夏的支派，且和楚一样，属黄帝之後，与汉人一样同为炎黄子孙的记载是真实的。l前任广西壮族自治区副主席周明甫指出：“壮族的形成，是在长期的历史过程中，世居在广西这片土地的古代百越诸民族与内地的汉族和其他民族长期融合而形成的，壮族与汉族及其他南方民族密不可分。”即壮族中有百越系统。因此，若真有一部分古越人後来融入到了壮族，即便除去汉族和其他民族的影响，还是说明壮族和汉族同源，都是炎黄子孙。 比较语言学用两民族的语言的语法是否相近，是否有大量音韵对应关系（不是发音相似）的基础词汇作为判定他们的语言是否同源，因而这两民族是否拥有同源的根据。从上面的汉壮语言的比较可知，不但可以认为汉壮本来就没什麽不同，还可以认为汉壮本就同源。当然，如果现在被列为壮族的人们不愿意再当汉人，更不愿意被人视作汉人的话，我的意见是不勉强。虽然民族是以共同的地域、共同的语言、共同的经济生活和共同的心理素质为其基本要素，但如果彼此没有了大家都是同一民族的民族认同（也算一种共同的心理素质）的话，就算了吧。再说，当少数民族还可以享受汉人享受不到的优惠政策呢。 如果废除了各种不利于民族团结、反而加深隔阂和矛盾的政策法律以及一些起了增强少数民族一事的做法的话，也许情况就不一样了。现在广西农村里的不少民族成份为壮族的农民，依然深信他们的祖先是汉人，他们是汉人的後裔。这不仅是我个人的感受，一些关于壮族的资料也是承认这一事实的，例如《壮族通史》以及《壮民族社会史研究》（塚田诚之著）。 2004-9-29

天天等等

	十分牵强！！

marsuncle

	建议南乡子读一下中央民大李锦芳先生的<侗台语言和文化>一书. [此贴子已经被作者于2004-9-30 0:56:51编辑过]

越色僚人

	南乡子的这个文章，其实根据的是壮族为汉族分支这样一个“先入为主”的前提，一开始就犯了这个主观错误。壮语等侗台语族（壮侗语族）的系属问题，在中外学术界存在着两个很大的分歧，国内持属于汉藏语系观点，国外持非汉藏语系观点。然而全世界语言学界都公认汉语和藏语的同源关系，是构成汉藏语系的根本，而汉语和壮语等侗台语族语言的关系，无论是否同一个语系，却都是较汉-藏之间同源的关系疏远的。所以南乡子的文章一开始就在壮语与汉语的关系上犯了根本的常识性错误。 19世纪下半期，国外语言学家发现汉语和泰语（包括壮语）、越南语等东亚、东南亚大陆国家的语言在形态上大都是非常接近的，如都是孤立语言，没有词根、词型变化，主要以语序和虚词来区分语意等共同特征，所以19世纪60年代的西方学者提出了“汉藏语系·汉泰语族”的观点。但是，到了20世纪40年代，美国学者发现汉语和泰语等语言的近似性，其根本原因在于历史上密切的接触而导致的联盟，而实际上汉语和泰语等侗台语族语言在“同源词”上的证据非常薄弱，而侗台语族自成体系、追溯到更古远的年代则与南岛语族诸语言拥有比较确凿的同源词，因此，鉴于历史语言学后来建立了“同源词”是亲属语言的唯一证据这样的标准，国外语言学界的主流观点后来都把侗台语族划归台-加岱语系，或者与南岛语系组成“澳-泰语系”，而中国国内学术界虽然大都坚持侗台语族属于汉藏语系的旧观点，即使是这样，也认清了“汉泰语族”是一个不存在的假设，而将汉语与台语诸语言分开了，提出了汉藏语系内部的汉语族和侗台语族的平行地位，并开始在寻找汉语与壮语的“同源词”上做工夫，但是至今仍然没有得出一个普遍有说服力的证据。因而国内学术界的主流也开始转变了以往侗台语族与汉语族之间关系的看法，特别是进入20世纪80年代之后，国内学术界也都认识到了侗台语族与汉藏语系诸语言的关系并不象以往观点那么简单，至少来说，汉语和藏语之间的同源关系是世界公认的，而汉语和壮语之间的同源关系是存在着很大争议的，而由于“同源词”是同一语系的唯一证据，因此国内语言学界也都对壮语等侗台语族属于汉藏语系表示了审慎的态度。 南乡子一开始就说“僮语属汉藏语系，且与汉语同属汉藏语系下的汉台语群。它与汉语的亲属关系远比汉语与藏语的关系接近”，其实正是沿袭了连国内语言学界现在都已经摈弃的19世纪“汉泰语族”的错误假设，无视语言学界对汉藏语系普遍达成的公认汉-藏同源、置疑汉-壮同源的事实。所以南乡子这篇文章纵然花费了许多心思去“证明”汉壮语同源，但始终只是在无法证明语言亲属关系的“语言形态”上去做工夫，无视了亲属语言唯一的有力证据——“同源词”，所以是毫无说服力的。归根结体也是因为其本人的出发点在于妄图证明所谓的“壮族为汉族分支”谬论，但对语言学缺乏一个起码的认识，说白了也就是“不懂装懂”罢了。 [此贴子已经被作者于2004-9-30 1:27:50编辑过]

路

	我觉得南乡子并不是什么“不懂装懂”，而是“懂装不懂”。为了证明自的荒谬观点，不惜引用一些早已被证明是错误的论断，无耻地在那里摇旗呐喊，妄想迷惑一些不懂真相的人们。

红棉树

	本来写这个帖子之前，想起名为“驳南乡子〈谈谈汉语和壮语的同源关系〉”的，但是回头一想，对于一个通篇缺乏语言学常识的“语言学文章”，用“驳”这种语气就有点过重了，或者说是没有必要，因为这样不能够称得上是学术的的文章是不需要去“驳”的，其谬误是显而易见，因此也就淡化一下，只指出其最为致命的谬误，进而指出这篇文章的全盘错误，以免其造成误导性就可以了。而且，也想借这个反证的机会，来总结一下国内外语言学界一百多年以来对侗台语（壮侗语族）系属问题看法的变化过程。 语言学是一门有严格方法论的学问，对于语言学的研究来说，离开方法论去谈论语言问题，就是失去了根本的研究工具；而歪曲方法论去研究语言问题，那就是歪曲了语言问题的本质。而南乡子的《谈谈汉语和壮语的同源关系》一文，正好都具备了“缺乏方法论”和“歪曲方法论”两个特征，因此这篇文章一来是没有什么研究价值的，二来则是歪曲了壮语和汉语关系的实质。 首先指出，南乡子一文当中所谓的“僮族”、“僮语”，也就是我们所说的“壮族”和“壮语”，“僮”这个词在表示民族称谓的时候读zhuàng而不是tóng，在1965年10月12日根据中华人民共和国国务院做出的《关于更改僮族及僮族自治地方名称问题给广西僮族自治区人民委员会、云南省人民委员会、广东省人民委员会的批复》，僮族改称壮族之后也就成为了历史名词，壮族的语言也改写为“壮语”，但南乡子在大多数场合都喜欢将壮族写为僮族，将壮语写为僮语，可能很多网友会有些迷惑或不解，特此说明。此外，“台语”在语言学上指的是壮侗语族（侗台语族）壮傣语支的语言如壮语、泰语、老挝语、侬语等，而不是现在媒体所称的台湾话（闽南语），这也是应该注意的。 南乡子说：“僮语属汉藏语系，且与汉语同属汉藏语系下的汉台语群。它与汉语的亲属关系远比汉语与藏语的关系接近。”——这是开篇就犯的一个语言学常识性错误，而这个错误，也是导致了通篇文章无法立论的病根。 ◆“藏缅语与汉语，貌异则源近；壮侗语与汉语，貌似则源远。”——戴庆厦 我们这里所谓的“亲属语言”，专门指的是源自19世纪历史比较语言学根据语言同源理论而提出的“由原始母语分化出来的亲属语言”，而不是由“语言影响形成的亲属语言”。 所谓的“汉台语群”，这是19世纪后半期提出的假设。19世纪60年代德国学者Schonn所写的小册子《暹罗语和汉语》中，描述了汉语官话、福建话和暹罗语（泰语）之间存在若干相同和一致的词，而到了19世纪90年代，经另外一个德国学者孔好古（A. Conrady）的研究，提出了“印度支那语族”一说，认为台语和汉语有亲缘关系。以后又有法国学者马伯乐（H. Maspero）和丹麦学者吴克德（K. Wulff）经过比较确认了孔好古的看法，一百多年前，所谓汉藏语系汉泰语族就是这样被“确认”了。 而南乡子以上的观点，正好是采用了一百多年前这个今天看来只能称得上是假设的论断。另外，南乡子还列举了“著名语言学家王力……指出：‘在汉藏语系中，汉语和侗台语（含僮话），苗瑶语，暹罗语（泰语），越南语等的关系比较近些，和藏语，彝语，缅甸语等的关系比较远些’”以及“语言学家邢公畹……指出：‘汉藏语系各支语言都是同一祖语中分化出来的。其中侗台语群（含壮语）中的各种语言在亲属关系上，跟汉语尤为接近。’”来作为支持他观点的学者盾牌，殊不知这些观点其实也正是那个时期国内语言学界某些专家学者对在侗台语系属研究上滞后的体现。 让我们来看看汉语与侗台语之间关系上，国际和国内语言学界的研究过程。 到了20世纪40年代初，美国学者白保罗（P.K.Benedict）发表了《台语、加岱语和印度尼西亚语——东南亚的一个新联盟》一文，提出台语不属于汉藏语系的论点，其根据是汉语与台语之间基本词汇同源的甚少，而在台语和印尼语中，却有相当数量确凿有据的同源词。这一说法提出之后，在西方学者当中影响很大，法国的奥得里古尔（A.G.Haudricourt）、美国的马提索夫（J.A.Matisoff）、日本的桥本万太郎（Mantaro J. Hashimoto）等著名学者都赞同白氏的观点。（《二十世纪的中国少数民族语言研究》P205） 在我国，多年受“印度支那语族”、“汉藏语系”学说 的影响，很少有人对汉语、藏缅语、壮侗语、苗瑶语等语言的系属问题提出过不同的看法。学术界普遍认为汉语和东南亚地区的许多语言以单音节、有声调、声调跟声母有一定的配合关系、量词丰富、缺乏词形变化、虚词广泛、词序固定等一系列特征而视为同源。殊不知这正是一种误区。（《二十世纪的中国少数民族语言研究》P206） 语言同源理论，出自19世纪的历史比较语言学。这一理论认为现存的某些语言早期可能由一个共同语分化而来，相互间存有若干相似或共同的因素，了解清楚这些共同成分，就能确定这些语言之间的关系。所谓相似因素和共同成分指的是基本词汇的同源和相应的语法形式，但不论同源或相应，都必须有严整的语音对应规律，不能光看形式上的近似。上边提到的汉语和台语的一系列共同特征中，正好缺少了最主要的一环，即同源词。（《二十世纪的中国少数民族语言研究》P207） 而关于汉语和台语之间的类似关系，如声调、类型（单音节、虚词和词序）等问题，都得到了全面的解释。根据多年来的调查资料，发现有的语言，声调产生的历史不过一千年，有的语言和方言至今还没有声调，可见声调并不是“原始汉藏语”最早的共同结构因素。量词的大量出现同样也很晚，据研究不会早于公元4、5世纪。而汉藏诸语言上述的同源落到实处，只剩下单音节、虚词和词序几项。人们不禁要问，汉藏诸语言能凭都是单音节、虚词较多，词序比较固定这几点来确定它们之间的亲缘关系吗？如所周知，这些特征只是语言结构类型上的共同点，不是亲属语言间内在联系的要素。单凭类型特征是无法说明语言间的发生学联系的。近年来，在讨论汉语与侗台语关系问题时，对这一点学术界已逐步取得了共识。（《二十世纪的中国少数民族语言研究》P207） 面对汉语与侗台语“类型上十分一致、同源词非常难求”的局面，美国学者白保罗的发现不仅为侗台语研究开辟了一条新途径，为后来的研究者扩大了视野，而且也为语言的“类型转换”理论提供了依据。我国学者对侗台语和印尼语的关系过去知之甚少，20世纪70年代后期，才开始做了一些认真的探索。经过对比词汇，侗台语与印尼语同源，这一点只要观察材料，多数人都是接受的。但是，侗台语与印尼语两种语言类型的差别太大，印尼语属于多音节粘着语，没有声调，侗台语属单音节词根语（或叫孤立语），每个音节都有声调。有很多中国学者就是因为这样而提出：侗台语如果确实与印尼语同源，那么是什么原因通过什么途径才演变成现在这个样子的呢？声调又是怎样产生的？ 20世纪80年代中期，中国学者在对海南岛三亚市郊区的回族语言的研究打破了这个僵局，并给出了一个合理的解释。海南岛三亚市的回族是一千年至五百年前（公元10世纪到15世纪，北宋初至明中叶），先后分几批从越南占城飘海而来的穆斯林，这些占城移民原来说的是占语，属于南岛语系印度尼西亚语族占语支，至今越南仍有好几种占语。一千年来，这些说占语的穆斯林后裔虽然人数不多，但是在其内部虔诚的宗教信仰、特有的风俗习惯以及世代相承的民族心理，使他们直到今天还保存着自己的语言，然而他们长期跟琼崖岛上说汉语的主体民族交往，在汉语和汉文化的强大影响下，把原来属于多音节、无声调、粘着型的马来-波利尼西亚系统的占语，逐渐演变为以单音节为主，产生了音调的类似汉语型词根语了。这种现象可以称之为“语言的类型转换”。三亚回语就是在一千年中经过约30代人的使用，逐渐从多音节演变为单音节，从无声调发展为有声调，直至形成今天这个面貌。三亚回语的存在和类型转换过程的发现，为中国大陆和东南亚各国所说的侗台语与南岛语的亲缘关系提供了有力的证据。（《二十世纪的中国少数民族语言研究》P208-212） 因为有了三亚回语这样的活标本，我们才有理由相信，今天以单音节、有声调为主的词根孤立型的侗台语有可能是从粘着型的南岛语演变来的，至于两者是否真正有关，主要还是根据同源词。根据最近的研究结果，在现存侗台语的某些语言和方言中，有一部分复辅音声母的词是由南岛语的多音节词（大部分是双音节词）演变来的。早期南岛语的部分双音节词，在历史演变过程中两个音节合二为一，成为一个声母是复辅音的单音节词，这一发现是侗台语与南岛语确有亲缘关系的直接证明。（《二十世纪的中国少数民族语言研究》P216） 迄今为止，在侗台语研究领域，国内外研究者取得的成就是突出的，进入了20世纪90年代之后，仍在不断充实和深化当中。对于侗台语族与汉语的关系，从“汉台语族”的同源论，到现在的侗台语为从粘着语类型受汉语影响发展而成孤立语的“异源论”，都是国外学者提出并不断论证的，而侗台语乃自源语言并在汉语影响下发生类型学变化就是一个正在被公认的事实。国内语言学界纵然由于某些政治敏感原因而没有公开承认侗台语族不属于汉藏语系，但是也都承认了壮语与汉语是否同源必须遵从“同源词证据”的原则，甚至有不少国内学者参与论证了侗台语与南岛语的亲属关系。而以上总结的这个过程，也正是中国语言学家总结并归纳出来的出版物中所发表的。 综上所述，侗台语族是否属于汉藏语系在国际语言学界早已遭到质疑，而在西方学界早已经是普遍认为侗台语属于澳-泰语系，而即使是坚持侗台语族属于汉藏语系的国内学者，也不再提“汉泰语族”而将侗台语族与汉语族、藏缅语族、苗瑶语族并列于汉藏语系之下，而南乡子沿袭的却是一百多年前的“汉台语群”的观点，其根本的误区正在于此。因此，南乡子在其文章当中所谓的“僮语不但其大多数词汇来自汉语，就连发音也与汉语的差不多，两者的语法也是共同点大于不同点的”，并花了很大的篇幅去列举壮语和汉语的语法结构，以及举出了古代汉语和现代壮语在许多类型之上的相似（这些相似其实还不是他所说的那样简单对应，不过因为不是问题的关键，因此对其谬误地方的指出在此省略），正是无视和歪曲了历史比较语言学当中同源语言要具有“同源词”证据的方法论，并看不到侗台语与汉语在“类型”上的共同特征不是同源证据而只是相互影响证据的事实。因此，其导出的“有不少人认为壮语实际上就是汉语的一种方言，或者跟汉语方言差不多，也许是有其道理的”这样的结论，是连最起码的语言学常识都不具备的体现。至于这个文章中还列举了壮语中的汉语借词，来企图证明壮语与汉语的亲属关系，那更是犯了历史语言学方法论上的错误，借词是不能当作同源词来论证两种语言的亲属关系的，而只能作为语言之间相互影响程度的根据。 另外，南乡子基本观点当中的有关藏语和汉语关系较壮语和汉语关系疏远的说法，又正好是以“语言类型”来定语言发生学关系这样谬误的延伸。和侗台语的系属问题存在争议不同的是，藏缅语族与汉语存在着发生学上的同源关系、汉藏语系里肯定包含汉语族（包括七大方言）和藏缅语族，这在语言学界是没有争议的。把有争议的壮侗语族与汉语的“亲属关系”，说成比学界公认的藏缅语族与汉语的亲属关系要近，这是一种很无知的笑话。著名语言学者戴庆厦总结所谓汉藏语系诸语言关系的时候，写过这么一句简明扼要的话——“藏缅语与汉语，貌异则源近；壮侗语与汉语，貌似则源远”，一语道破藏缅语、侗台语与汉语之间亲疏远近的关系。 至于，南乡子先生还在他的这个文章当中附带讨论了他对壮族历史的源流和对现行民族政策的看法，因为与语言的学术问题无关，在此就不参与讨论了。 2004-9-30 [此贴子已经被作者于2004-9-30 4:54:49编辑过]

铜碗豆

	就算他说是汉语又怎么样？就算我们大家都跟他一样认为僚语就是汉语又怎么样？轮到坐桌子吃饭的时候他也要抢着坐上席啊！反过来他就会说，你们这些蛮子原本就不是我们汉族啊，现在让你们跟我们共桌吃饭了就应该知足了，还来抢位子？有什么资格啊！不照镜子看看你们长的什么摸样，不想想你们祖先是什么人？…… 常常遇上有人嘲笑满族同胞说，你看你们连自己祖宗的语言都没有了……！我就禁不住地心寒！再过几十年嘲笑满族的人就会跟着来嘲笑我们僚人了！

朱由检

	矛盾有了就无法弥补，有些人就是没事找事！有些我们知道就行了，何必与少数民族说了！

红水河畔

	壮民族是客观存在的，不论承认与否，国民党时代没有承认壮族的存在，它也存在着，共产党做了点好事，承认了它的存在，却把它分成了两个民族——壮族和布依族。

越僚

	这人开始是否定壮族的存在，看实在是不行了就想方设法论证壮族汉族同源，真够他辛苦的了，哈哈，干脆把汉族改为壮族算了，中国以壮语武鸣话为普通话，这样的话我举双脚赞成。

wenliqan

	支持楼上

chinjingh

	我不想看到此类贴子出现。当年日本侵略中国都有所谓的专家理由，中国的这些专家跟他们有什么区别！不要为同化我们僚民族找什么借口！

浪人

	以下是引用越僚在2004-9-30 13:27:10的发言： 这人开始是否定壮族的存在，看实在是不行了就想方设法论证壮族汉族同源，真够他辛苦的了，哈哈，干脆把汉族改为壮族算了，中国以壮语武鸣话为普通话，这样的话我举双脚赞成。 真是有意思啊。当初他是极力否认壮族的客观存在的，竟信口雌黄的称“壮语是汉语的一种方言”。现在又变成了“同源”了。变得还真快啊。

浪人

	连壮话中的亲属称谓中也有很多与汉语的相同，甚至很多乡村的土壮话的亲属称谓也与汉语的相同，却与泰语的同。例如靖西壮话中的爷爷、哥；柳江壮话中的伯母、姑妈、姨妈、舅妈；忻城壮话中的叔、哥、姐等亲戚称谓。 别的方言偶不知道。靖西壮话中的爷爷的发音和汉语粤语发音相似，但意思可完全不同啊。“爷”不是爸爸的爸爸，而是爸爸或妈妈的哥哥。而哥的发音则不相同啊。靖西话“哥”的发音是“o”，而不是普通话的ge或粤语的guo啊。

Stoneman

	Gou doenghbaez guh seng'eiq seizhaenx, bae gvaq Malaysia, Indonesia, caeuq Vietnam geij baez, rox gangj saek di gij coenz vah Malaysia caeuq Indonesia. Gij coenz Malaysia caeuq gij coenz Indonesia miz haujlai cungj doxdoengz, song cungj coenz cungj miz saek di cih fap yaem caeuq eiqsei caeuq Vahcuengh raeuz doxdoengx, lumjbaenz aen cih "gwn"-Vahcuengh, "majgwn"-Malay/Indonesian. Gij vahdiuz goengqde caeuq gij vahdiuz Vahcuengh hix miz saek di doxdoengz. I visited Malaysia, Indonesia and Vietnam for a couple of times before when I was doing trading business. I could speak a little bit Malay and Indonesian. Malay is silimar to Indonesian. Both languages have some words whose pronounciation and meaning are similar to those of Zhuang, such as the word "eat", in Zhuang, it is pronounced as "gwn" and in Malay and Indonesian "majgwn" (here I use the Sawcuengh spelling to spell so as to compare). The tone of both languages is somehow silimar to our Zhuang too.

Stoneman

	The Tai languages are a subgroup of the Tai Kadai The Tai-Kadai languages are a language family found in Southeast Asia and southern China. They were formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan family, but are now classified independently as the Tai-Kadai family. They may be related to the Austronesian language family. Some researchers have even proposed they are part of a larger Austric superfamily. The Tai-Kadai languages originated in southern China, which is home to most of the Tai-Kadai subfamilies. Speakers of the Tai languages subgroup moved south into Southeast Asia in historic times, founding the nations that later became Thailand and Laos. Most languages are known to belong to language families (called simply "families" for the rest of this article). An accurately identified family is a phylogenetic unit, i.e., all its members derive from a common ancestor. The ancestor is very seldom known to us directly, since most languages have a very short recorded history. However, it is possible to recover many of the features of the common ancestor of related languages by applying comparative method -- a reconstructive procedure worked out by 19th-century linguist August Schleicher. It can demonstrate the family status of many of the groupings listed below. The Tai languages include the most widely spoken of the Tai-Kadai languages, including Thai The Thai language is the official language of Thailand. The Thai name for the language is ภาษาไทย (phasa thai, meaning "the language of Thais"). Thai is part of the Tai languages group of the Tai-Kadai language family. The Tai-Kadai languages are thought to have originated in southern China, and some linguists have proposed links to the Austroasiatic, Austronesian, or Sino-Tibetan language families. It is a tonal and analytic language. The combination of tonality, complex orthography, relational markers and a different phonology can make Thai a difficult language for Westerners to learn. [T]he national language of Thailand The Kingdom of Thailand is a country in southeast Asia, bordering Laos and Cambodia to the east, the Gulf of Thailand and Malaysia to the south, and the Andaman Sea and Myanmar to the west. Thailand is also known as Siam, which was the country's official name until May 11, 1949. The word Thai (ไทย) means "free" in the Thai language. It is also the name of the Thai people - leading some inhabitants, particularly the sizeable Chinese minority, to still use the name Siam. Lao Lao (ພາສາລາວ phaasaa laao) is the official language of Laos. It is a tonal language of the Tai family, and is closely related to the language of the north-eastern Isan region of Thailand. The writing system of Lao is an abugida and is closely related to the writing system used in Thai. Lao language can be divided into five main dialects : Vientiane Lao Northern Lao (Luang Prabang) North-Eastern Lao (Xieng Khouang) Central Lao (Khammouan) Southern Lao (Champasak) Laotian, the national language of Laos The Lao People's Democratic Republic is a landlocked country in southeast Asia, bordered by Myanmar (commonly known in the west as Burma) and China to the northwest, Vietnam to the east, Cambodia to the south, and Thailand to the west. The term Lao is most frequently used to refer to the dominant language and people of Laos. It is also a romanised form of the word Laos in the Lao language (ລາວ), the Thai language (ลาว), and probably other Tai languages. It is sometimes used in English to refer to the country as well, but romanisation standards hold that "Laos" is the preferred spelling. ..... Click the link for more information. , Myanmar Myanmar is a country in Southeast Asia, formerly known as Burma. The name of the country was changed in 1989, and this change of name has been officially recognized by the United Nations. However, some nations, such as the United States and United Kingdom, do not recognize this change of name, since they do not recognize the military government which instituted it. Today, many people use Myanmar, which is a derivative of the Burmese short-form name Myanma Naingngandaw, regardless of their opinion of the military government. ..... Click the link for more information. 's Shan language Shan language The Shan language is related to the Thai language and is commonly called Tai Shan. It is spoken in Northeast Myanmar and in pockets in Thailand. It has 5 tones and is a part of the Thai languages group, which span from Northern Myanmar on the west through Southern China on the north, and Laos on the east. Studies of the Shan people are complicated by the civil war within ..... Click the link for more information. , and Zhuang The Zhuang language (Chinese: 壮语; pinyin: Zhuàngyǔ) is used by the Zhuang people in the People's Republic of China. Most of them live in the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region. Zhuang is an official language in that Region. Language use is however rapidly declining as the Zhuang assimilate to the Han Chinese. Bouyei, considered a separate language in China, is actually just a slightly different standard form of Zhuang, used across the province border in Guizhou. There is a dialect continuum between Zhuang and Bouyei. ..... Click the link for more information. , a major language of southern China This article is on the geographic and cultural entity. For other meanings, see China (disambiguation). China (Traditional Chinese: 中國, Simplified Chinese: 中国, Hanyu Pinyin: Zhōngguó, Wade-Giles: Chung-kuo) is an ancient cultural and geographic entity in continental East Asia with some offshore islands which since 1949 has been divided between the People's Republic of China (governing Mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau) and the Republic of China (governing Taiwan and several outlying islands of Fujian Province). ..... Click the link for more information. . Tai languages Central Tai languages (6) Zhuang language The Zhuang language (Chinese: 壮语; pinyin: Zhuàngyǔ) is used by the Zhuang people in the People's Republic of China. Most of them live in the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region. Zhuang is an official language in that Region. Language use is however rapidly declining as the Zhuang assimilate to the Han Chinese. Bouyei, considered a separate language in China, is actually just a slightly different standard form of Zhuang, used across the province border in Guizhou. There is a dialect continuum between Zhuang and Bouyei. ..... Click the link for more information. (China This article is on the geographic and cultural entity. For other meanings, see China (disambiguation). China (Traditional Chinese: 中國, Simplified Chinese: 中国, Hanyu Pinyin: Zhōngguó, Wade-Giles: Chung-kuo) is an ancient cultural and geographic entity in continental East Asia with some offshore islands which since 1949 has been divided between the People's Republic of China (governing Mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau) and the Republic of China (governing Taiwan and several outlying islands of Fujian Province). ..... Click the link for more information. ) E language (China) Man Cao Lan language (Viet Nam) Nung language The Nung are an ethnic minority in Vietnam. Population: Estimated to be more than 700,000. Location: Provinces of: Bac Giang, Bac Kan, Cao Bang, Lang Son, Thau Nguyen, and Tuyen Quang. Language: The Nung language is part of the Tai languages (written script developed c. 17th century). Sustenance: Agriculture; terraced hillside, paddy, orchard farming. Rice, maize, tangerine, persimmon. Prominent income from Anise. Handicrafts (bamboo, rattan, weaving), carpentry, iron forging. ..... Click the link for more information. (Viet Nam) Tày language (Viet Nam) Ts'ün-Lao language (Viet Nam) Northwestern Tai languages (1) Turung language (India) Northern Tai languages (4) Northern Zhuang language The Zhuang language (Chinese: 壮语; pinyin: Zhuàngyǔ) is used by the Zhuang people in the People's Republic of China. Most of them live in the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region. Zhuang is an official language in that Region. Language use is however rapidly declining as the Zhuang assimilate to the Han Chinese. Bouyei, considered a separate language in China, is actually just a slightly different standard form of Zhuang, used across the province border in Guizhou. There is a dialect continuum between Zhuang and Bouyei. ..... Click the link for more information. (China This article is on the geographic and cultural entity. For other meanings, see China (disambiguation). China (Traditional Chinese: 中國, Simplified Chinese: 中国, Hanyu Pinyin: Zhōngguó, Wade-Giles: Chung-kuo) is an ancient cultural and geographic entity in continental East Asia with some offshore islands which since 1949 has been divided between the People's Republic of China (governing Mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau) and the Republic of China (governing Taiwan and several outlying islands of Fujian Province). ..... Click the link for more information. ) Nhang language (Viet Nam) Bouyei language The Buyi or Bouyei people (Self called: "Puyi", "Puzhong", "Burao", "Puman"; Chinese: 布依族; pinyin: bùyī zú) are an ethnic group living in southern China. Numbering 2.5 million, they are the 11th largest of the 56 ethnic groups officially recognized by the People's Republic of China. The Buyi live in semi-tropical, high-altitude forests of Guizhou province, as well as in Yunnan and Sichuan provinces, and speak a Tai language related to Zhuang. Traditionally, they practiced animism, although many have now converted to Christianity. ..... Click the link for more information. (Buyi) (China This article is on the geographic and cultural entity. For other meanings, see China (disambiguation). China (Traditional Chinese: 中國, Simplified Chinese: 中国, Hanyu Pinyin: Zhōngguó, Wade-Giles: Chung-kuo) is an ancient cultural and geographic entity in continental East Asia with some offshore islands which since 1949 has been divided between the People's Republic of China (governing Mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau) and the Republic of China (governing Taiwan and several outlying islands of Fujian Province). ..... Click the link for more information. ) Tai Mène language (Laos) Southwestern Tai languages (29) Pu Ko language (Laos) Tai Long language (Laos) East Central Tai languages (21) Chiang Saeng languages (8) * Tai Dam language (Viet Nam) * Northern Thai language The Northern Thai language is the language of the people of Lannathai, Thailand. It is a Tai language, related to Thai and Lao. Northern Thai has approximately six million speakers, most of whom live in Thailand, with a few thousand in Laos. Speakers of this language generally consider the name Yuan to be pejorative. They generally call themselves Khon Mueang (or Lannathai, or Northern Thai--or Western Lao, across the border). The language is generally known by one of these terms, or as Phayap. The term Yuan is still used for the distinctive Lannathai script, which is closely related to the old Thai Lue alphabet and the Lao religious alphabets. It also resembles the Burmese and Mon alphabets. (All these alphabets derive from the Old Mon alphabet.) The use of the ..... Click the link for more information. (Lanna, Thai Yuan) (Thailand The Kingdom of Thailand is a country in southeast Asia, bordering Laos and Cambodia to the east, the Gulf of Thailand and Malaysia to the south, and the Andaman Sea and Myanmar to the west. Thailand is also known as Siam, which was the country's official name until May 11, 1949. The word Thai (ไทย) means "free" in the Thai language. It is also the name of the Thai people - leading some inhabitants, particularly the sizeable Chinese minority, to still use the name Siam. ..... Click the link for more information. , Laos The Lao People's Democratic Republic is a landlocked country in southeast Asia, bordered by Myanmar (commonly known in the west as Burma) and China to the northwest, Vietnam to the east, Cambodia to the south, and Thailand to the west. The term Lao is most frequently used to refer to the dominant language and people of Laos. It is also a romanised form of the word Laos in the Lao language (ລາວ), the Thai language (ลาว), and probably other Tai languages. It is sometimes used in English to refer to the country as well, but romanisation standards hold that "Laos" is the preferred spelling. ..... Click the link for more information. ) * Phuan language (Thailand) * Song language (Thailand) * Thai language The Thai language is the official language of Thailand. The Thai name for the language is ภาษาไทย (phasa thai, meaning "the language of Thais"). Thai is part of the Tai languages group of the Tai-Kadai language family. The Tai-Kadai languages are thought to have originated in southern China, and some linguists have proposed links to the Austroasiatic, Austronesian, or Sino-Tibetan language families. It is a tonal and analytic language. The combination of tonality, complex orthography, relational markers and a different phonology can make Thai a difficult language for Westerners to learn. ..... Click the link for more information. (Thailand The Kingdom of Thailand is a country in southeast Asia, bordering Laos and Cambodia to the east, the Gulf of Thailand and Malaysia to the south, and the Andaman Sea and Myanmar to the west. Thailand is also known as Siam, which was the country's official name until May 11, 1949. The word Thai (ไทย) means "free" in the Thai language. It is also the name of the Thai people - leading some inhabitants, particularly the sizeable Chinese minority, to still use the name Siam. ..... Click the link for more information. ) * Tai Dón language (Viet Nam) * Tai Daeng language (Viet Nam) * Tay Tac language (Viet Nam) Lao-Phutai languages (4) * Lao language Lao (ພາສາລາວ phaasaa laao) is the official language of Laos. It is a tonal language of the Tai family, and is closely related to the language of the north-eastern Isan region of Thailand. The writing system of Lao is an abugida and is closely related to the writing system used in Thai. Lao language can be divided into five main dialects : Vientiane Lao Northern Lao (Luang Prabang) North-Eastern Lao (Xieng Khouang) Central Lao (Khammouan) Southern Lao (Champasak) ..... Click the link for more information. (Laos The Lao People's Democratic Republic is a landlocked country in southeast Asia, bordered by Myanmar (commonly known in the west as Burma) and China to the northwest, Vietnam to the east, Cambodia to the south, and Thailand to the west. The term Lao is most frequently used to refer to the dominant language and people of Laos. It is also a romanised form of the word Laos in the Lao language (ລາວ), the Thai language (ลาว), and probably other Tai languages. It is sometimes used in English to refer to the country as well, but romanisation standards hold that "Laos" is the preferred spelling. ..... Click the link for more information. ) * Nyaw language (Thailand) * Phu Thai language (Thailand) * Isan language Isan (or Isaan or Esarn) is the language of the Isan region of Thailand. It is a tonal language of the Tai family, and is closely related to Lao, but has also been much influenced by Thai. Phonology and the rules for determining tones vary in each dialect, but are generally similar to Lao. The vocabulary is largely the same as in Lao, except for the use of Thai loan words and neologisms. It was previously written using the Tua Tham script also used in Laos and northern Thailand, but since the introduction of Thai language schooling in the 1920s it has been written in the Thai script. ..... Click the link for more information. (Northeastern Thai) (Thailand The Kingdom of Thailand is a country in southeast Asia, bordering Laos and Cambodia to the east, the Gulf of Thailand and Malaysia to the south, and the Andaman Sea and Myanmar to the west. Thailand is also known as Siam, which was the country's official name until May 11, 1949. The word Thai (ไทย) means "free" in the Thai language. It is also the name of the Thai people - leading some inhabitants, particularly the sizeable Chinese minority, to still use the name Siam. ..... Click the link for more information. , Laos The Lao People's Democratic Republic is a landlocked country in southeast Asia, bordered by Myanmar (commonly known in the west as Burma) and China to the northwest, Vietnam to the east, Cambodia to the south, and Thailand to the west. The term Lao is most frequently used to refer to the dominant language and people of Laos. It is also a romanised form of the word Laos in the Lao language (ລາວ), the Thai language (ลาว), and probably other Tai languages. It is sometimes used in English to refer to the country as well, but romanisation standards hold that "Laos" is the preferred spelling. ..... Click the link for more information. ) Northwestern Tai languages (9) * Ahom language The Ahom language was spoken by the Ahom people who ruled most of Assam from the 13th century until the British occupation in 1838. The apex of Ahom rule was reached under King Rudra Singh (1696–1714). The Ahom people and their language originated in Yunnan in south-west China and they migrated into the south-east Asian peninsula and northern Myanmar. Ahom is classified as Tai-Kadai, Kam-Tai, Be-Tai, Tai-Sek. It has its own script. ..... Click the link for more information. (India - extinct. Modern Assamese Assamese (অসমীয়া) Spoken in: India, Bangladesh, Bhutan Region: Asia Total speakers: N/A Ranking: See http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/help/top-100-languages-by-population.html Genetic classification: Indo-European Indo-Iranian Indo-Aryan Eastern Zone Bengali-Assamese ..... Click the link for more information. is Indo-European.) * Aiton language (India) * Lü language (Lue, Tai Lue) (China This article is on the geographic and cultural entity. For other meanings, see China (disambiguation). China (Traditional Chinese: 中國, Simplified Chinese: 中国, Hanyu Pinyin: Zhōngguó, Wade-Giles: Chung-kuo) is an ancient cultural and geographic entity in continental East Asia with some offshore islands which since 1949 has been divided between the People's Republic of China (governing Mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau) and the Republic of China (governing Taiwan and several outlying islands of Fujian Province). ..... Click the link for more information. , Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar) * Khamti language (India, Myanmar) * Khün language (Myanmar) * Khamyang language (India) * Phake language (India) * Shan language (Myanmar) * Tai Nüa language (China, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos) Southern Tai languages (1) Southern Thai language (Pak Thai) (Thailand) Unclassified Southwestern Tai languages (5) Tai Ya language (China) Tai Hang Tong language (Viet Nam) Tai Hongjin language (China) Tai Man Thanh language (Viet Nam) Yong language (Thailand) Unclassified Tai languages (7) Kang language (Laos) Rien language (Laos) Tay Khang language (Laos) Tai Pao language (Laos) Tay Jo language (Viet Nam) Kuan language (Laos) Yoy language (Thailand) Source: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Tai%20languages [此贴子已经被作者于2004-10-1 4:19:45编辑过]

Stoneman

	Tai languages The languages of the Tai family are found in Southeast Asia. Britannica claims this language family was formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan languages, but that most of the similarities are incidental and that the relationship appears to be false. It also mentions suggestions that the Tai are closer to the Austronesian languages. south-western group Thai or Siamese (Thailand) Lao or Laotian (Laos, Thailand) Shan language (Burma) Yuan language (Thailand) central and northern groups (China) Nung Tho Kam-Sui group Kadai group (China, Yunnan) Source: http://www.fact-index.com/t/ta/tai_languages.html

农侬

	各位比侬，你们可否知道 [无标题]: bbs.eastday.com.cn/allforum/26/06/0026061211.htm满清使汉族人的服装面貌产生了一个重大的变化,将延续了两三千年的汉民族 ... 唐服啊——从唐服骚动联想到"大汉族主义" 南乡子 原载:国家与社会论坛 gjsh.resourcez.com 这 ... 怎麽没人抗议他们在提倡"大汉族主义"呢?呵呵。 日皇太子妃穿的好像是唐代 ... bbs.eastday.com.cn/allforum/26/06/0026061211.htm - 68k - 2003年9月9日 - 网页快照

农侬

	New World Order不 刪 贴 论 坛 Select GB2312 encoding to view and to post Chinese messages System Alert : You Have 1 Message ... 对网上著名大汉族主义分子南乡子的一封公开信 - er, Sun, Feb 22 2004 at 1:22 am [8.7KB] ... - Re: Re: 对网上著名大汉族主义分子南乡子的一封公开信 - 中国汉人, Wed, Mar 17 2004 at 1 ... bbs.onecenter.com/cgi-bin/forum/forum.cgi?fid=xion... - 15k - 2004年8月23日 - 网页快照

农侬

	答J散人:野蛮民族对先进民族的佂服就是对历史的反动!『关天茶舍』 答J散人:野蛮民族对先进民族的佂服就是对历史的反动! 作者:3X 提交日期:2002-9-2 0:07:00 回答J ... 对人类历史有贡献,如果说汉民族是个伟大的民族,就是大汉族主义,就是汉族沙文主义。 ... 能复宋世之半也!" 南乡子 即便是在满清统治的时候 ... www.tianyaclub.com/new/Publicforum/Content.asp?idW... - 91k - 2004年9月26日 - 网页快照