僚人家园

标题: 南京都来贵州寻根,吴越人也该来僚乡寻根了! [打印本页]

作者: 依维    时间: 2005-12-16 01:24
标题: 南京都来贵州寻根,吴越人也该来僚乡寻根了!

来僚乡看看你们祖先是怎样生活的??
贵州屯堡:“寻根”情结牵动南京人

发布时间:2005-12-5  新闻摘自: 新华网贵州频道

新华网贵州频道12月4日专电(记者李春惠)近来, “到贵州寻找600年前的老汉人”的标语,多次出现在南京的大街小巷。“寻根问祖”的情结一头牵着南京人,一头牵着贵州省安顺市屯堡人。
600年前,一批南京人背井离乡,来到今天贵州省安顺市天龙山下戍边,将南京当地的文化、风俗习惯、言谈话语、衣着服饰一并带来了。弹指之间,600年过去。如今,他们的子孙后代依然保留着明代的服饰、口音和生活习俗。

走进屯堡,踏上青砖铺成的街道,家家户户的门窗都装饰有各种图案的木雕,四合院带着江淮建筑的特征,相同风格的住宅连成一片,笼罩着江淮文化氛围,令人顿生置身江南小镇的感觉。

贵州屯堡文化与南京文化的历史渊源,互动性强,南京人寻根的渴望,搭建起屯堡人与江南人情感交流的桥梁,促进了屯堡旅游的繁荣。
新华网贵州频道12月4日专电(记者李春惠)近来, “到贵州寻找600年前的老汉人”的标语,多次出现在南京的大街小巷。“寻根问祖”的情结一头牵着南京人,一头牵着贵州省安顺市屯堡人。
600年前,一批南京人背井离乡,来到今天贵州省安顺市天龙山下戍边,将南京当地的文化、风俗习惯、言谈话语、衣着服饰一并带来了。弹指之间,600年过去。如今,他们的子孙后代依然保留着明代的服饰、口音和生活习俗。

走进屯堡,踏上青砖铺成的街道,家家户户的门窗都装饰有各种图案的木雕,四合院带着江淮建筑的特征,相同风格的住宅连成一片,笼罩着江淮文化氛围,令人顿生置身江南小镇的感觉。

贵州屯堡文化与南京文化的历史渊源,互动性强,南京人寻根的渴望,搭建起屯堡人与江南人情感交流的桥梁,促进了屯堡旅游的繁荣。

作者: 依维    时间: 2005-12-16 01:28
我看屯堡人不是汉人啊!!!
作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 10:11
吳越乃百越的源頭耶,應該是僚人到吳越尋根耶。
作者: 沙南曼森    时间: 2005-12-16 11:10
以下是引用北姑在2005-12-16 10:11:21的发言:
吳越乃百越的源頭耶,應該是僚人到吳越尋根耶。

源头就不一定了。很早以前,百越就已分布于会嵇到交趾的广大地域。吴越只是百越当中较发达的部分而已。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 11:24
以下是引用沙南曼森在2005-12-16 11:10:38的发言:

源头就不一定了。很早以前,百越就已分布于会嵇到交趾的广大地域。吴越只是百越当中较发达的部分而已。

即使是越南歷史,也是記載越南先民的駱越來自長江下游的越國,而沒有越人從南方遷徙的記載耶。

而中國歷史中對百越的定義,也是以吳越為基準的耶。


作者: 沙南曼森    时间: 2005-12-16 11:28
迁徙是什么年代的事?记载(追记)又是什么年代的事?二者相差上千年。
作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 11:34

越南歷史中的龐鴻及文郎時代跟中國歷史的吻合,是否抄襲中國的就不得而知了。

至於中國歷史是以吳越作為百越的基準,就沒有問題吧?

根據人種的遷移推論,黃種人南下把土著矮黑人融合或驅趕到南洋的邏輯,比黃種人形成於北部灣的說法更加有說服力吧?


作者: 沙南曼森    时间: 2005-12-16 11:45

百越有基准吗?首次听说,不好意思。我所知道的是中国史书中提到吴越比提到百越其他部分多许多而已。

“根據人種的遷移推論,黃種人南下把土著矮黑人融合或驅趕到南洋的邏輯,比黃種人形成於北部灣的說法更加有說服力吧?”这个我是同意的。但什么时候有过“黄种人形成于北部湾”的说法呢?我是头一次听说。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 11:59
以下是引用沙南曼森在2005-12-16 11:45:04的发言:

百越有基准吗?首次听说,不好意思。我所知道的是中国史书中提到吴越比提到百越其他部分多许多而已。

“根據人種的遷移推論,黃種人南下把土著矮黑人融合或驅趕到南洋的邏輯,比黃種人形成於北部灣的說法更加有說服力吧?”这个我是同意的。但什么时候有过“黄种人形成于北部湾”的说法呢?我是头一次听说。

我試找回之前轉貼過的文章耶。

周人先接觸到吳越,而把長江中下游南部同風共俗的泛稱百越耶。

應該說清楚,是指僚人先民甌駱形成於北部灣的說法耶,政治部貝儂推崇的李輝提倡的耶。


作者: 沙南曼森    时间: 2005-12-16 12:16

我赞同百越各部均由岭南迁出的说法,尽管这不容易让长江、黄河流域的人相信。另外,这说法不等于否认其他百越地方在越人到达之前没有人类生活。

我愿意相信人类是多起源的,文化(包括语言)是由血缘、地缘相关的形成聚落的人群共同创造的,而不是一开始就存在的。零散的不成聚落的远古人类跟野生动物没多少区别,他们几乎没什么文化可言。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 12:33

吳越人種是否來自嶺南沒有資料考據耶,不過根據文明發達的程度與及人口的推敲吳越文化就沒有理由會受嶺南的影響耶,反之嶺南就應該受吳越的影響耶,好像青銅器的技術。

而在秦侵略之前,嶺南亦受過楚文化的影響耶。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 12:52

http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%99%BE%E8%B6%8A&variant=zh-cn#.E5.92.8C.E3.80.8C.E7.99.BE.E8.B6.8A.E6.97.8F.E3.80.8D.E6.9C.89.E9.97.9C.E7.9A.84.E7.A0.94.E7.A9.B6.E6.9B.B8.E7.9B.AE.E8.88.89.E9.9A.85

根据有关文献的记载,早在时期,就有被称之为“越”的古民族,生活在现今中国的东南及南部地区(王东 2003,3)。春秋晚期至战国前期,越族曾在今江浙一带建立强大的越国,共传8代,历160多年,与当时中原国家会盟,雄视江淮地区,号称“霸主”(请参见“勾践”条目)(陈国强 2000)。有学者根据《史记》“越王勾践世家”的描述,认为越族是夏禹的后代。不过,研究百越族的中国学者宋蜀华认为,“勾践的祖父夫镡以上至夏少康庶子无余,世系不清楚;夏少康经商至周敬王共60余代,两者世系相差近1000年,把越王勾践说成是夏少康的后裔,实难信服”(引自龚佩华 nd)。此外,宋蜀华也认为夏文化和越文化截然不同,因为“夏人活动地区从未发现过‘印纹陶文化’,而‘印纹陶’流行地区也从未发现过‘二里头文化’”(引自龚佩华 nd)。1

根据目前考古学的证据,距今7000年的浙江河姆渡文化”遗址,很可能就是古越族所创造出来的文化。河姆渡遗址已发现了稻谷、稻草和稻壳的堆积,有学者相信这是世界上首创的作文化(易华 nd)。此外,现在的考古学家也普遍认为,广泛分布于中国南方各地的以几何印纹陶为主要特征的文化遗存,可能也是由古越族所创造出来的。最近数十年來的考古发掘表明:这种以几何印纹陶为主要特征的文化遗存,在时间上从4000多年前的新石器时代晚期开始,一直延续到商周秦汉时期,在空间上则遍布于中国东南地区及岭南一带(王东 2003,3)。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 12:53

http://www.china10k.com/simp/history/1/11/11b/11b23/11b2320.htm

华南印纹陶文化

新石器时代晚期,中国南方的江西、福建、广东、广西、云南出现了一种很有特色的陶器。这种陶器烧制坚硬,犹如瓷器,故名硬陶。陶器表面拍印一些方格纹、圆圈纹、曲折纹等几何形纹饰。由于它的分布范围相当广泛,因此人们把出有这种陶器的古代文化称为印纹陶文化。它的延续时间也很长,一直到商周时期的遗址还有发现,而且流传到北方中原地区。它们往往是作为珍贵的器物埋藏在帝王贵族的大墓中


作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-16 12:55

http://www.china10k.com/simp/history/1/11/11b/11b23/11b2312.htm

河姆渡文化

新石器时代晚期文化,年代距今约6950-5330年。因首先发现于浙江余姚河姆渡遗址,故名,分布于宁绍平原。遗址中保存有成堆的稻谷、谷壳、稻杆和稻叶,一般厚二十至五十厘米。与稻作农业相适应,农具中的骨耜数量特别多,上面凿孔装柄,以方便使用。出土遗物共六千多件,其中多为骨器,也有陶器、玉器、木器。木器相当发达,既有铲、桨、杵、锤等生产工具,也有碗、盆等生活用具。有一件碗上还发现有朱红色涂料,经化验,涂料实为生漆,这是中国最早的漆器。

房屋建筑颇为特别。这是一种干栏式的建筑,先在地上打成排的桩木,上面架梁,然后铺设楼板,形成架空的房基。上面再立柱、架梁、封顶。由于南方天气潮湿,这种木构建筑非常有优越性,现在云南的一些地方还可以见到。


作者: 依维    时间: 2005-12-16 22:48

到底是吴越人从僚乡迁出还是僚人从吴越之地迁出还是原地活动,谁都下不了定论!但有一点可以肯定!现代僚人保留下来的"古越风"要比吴越人保留下来的要浓得多了,吴越人汉化太严重了,他们没有权利继承"古越文化"的资格,配不上当古越人的后裔!!他们不够格!!他们是古越族的败类.他们把老祖宗留下的"古越文化"这笔丰厚的财产践踏得面目全非!!!

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-12-16 22:49:43编辑过]

作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-17 10:58

如何為之古越風呢?吳越人儘管跟中原融合程度較深,不過仍然保持不少吳越風俗耶。

至少現在吳語群體仍然保留獨特的語言及文化,沒有跟中原完全融合耶。

古越人本身也是融合出來的亞種,而古越文化其實也是融合文化耶,那古越人又能否說成是矮黑人或南下黃種人的敗類呢?個人認為,不要說得太盡耶,還有留有餘地好。


作者: 南岛    时间: 2005-12-17 21:26
吴越由岭南迁出,然后吴越比岭南发达了,继而反过来影响岭南越人,这也是很有可能的呀。
作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-19 09:57

越人據說乃夏人之後耶,不過發源地乃長江中下游一帶耶,而非未開發的嶺南耶。越南歷史也是說祖先駱越來自長江中下游一帶耶。

而吳人乃南下越化的東夷耶。

我也很想知道吳越源自嶺南的說法從何而來耶,就好像台灣乃南島系發源地一樣耶。


作者: 南粤孤客    时间: 2005-12-20 09:07
以下是引用依维在2005-12-16 1:28:34的发言:
我看屯堡人不是汉人啊!!!

他们不会说布依话,而且有强烈的汉族认同!尽管衣着跟周围的布依族差别不大。在1980年前,贵州民族杂居地区的农村,汉族与布依族衣着款式基本相同,外地人是区分不出来的。而本地的汉族和布依族都能区分,本质差别是:布依族以着自织布料为荣,汉族以着机织布料为耀。再细些区别,布依族的衣着有手工挑花图案,而汉族没有!


作者: 我不是郭靖    时间: 2005-12-22 11:58
海南省讲临高话的人也要寻根了,海南省有近50多万人讲着和海南话(闽南方言)完全不一样的话,分部在临高县全县、海口市郊区的6个镇,和几个县的部分村,85年临高县因为要 确定临高人的族别问题曾经邀请中央民委的专家来研究,曾经到过广西、 福建等地考察,确认临高话是壮语的一个分支,70%和壮语接近。
作者: 北姑    时间: 2005-12-22 12:10
還有回輝話呢,乃屬於馬來語系的占城話耶。
作者: Haeuxseng    时间: 2005-12-22 12:30

姑姑的话似乎不对吧?没听说过吴越是百越的源头这样的话。一味的以为强就是头了,这是什么想法啊!


作者: 路    时间: 2005-12-22 12:47
以下是引用北姑在2005-12-16 10:11:21的发言:
吳越乃百越的源頭耶,應該是僚人到吳越尋根耶。

强烈反对北姑的这个论断。吴越及岭南一带其它越族人应该是同根生的兄弟民族,并不能说吴越就是百越的源头。只是吴越与华夏文明在地理上较为接近,并参加了中原的称霸,而为华夏民族所认知,并载入史册。而岭南及西南的越人在早期因没有与华夏民族进行接触而没有史料记载,但并不等于他们的古代文明就不存在耶(咦,我怎么也说“耶”了)。


作者: 毕兹卡    时间: 2006-1-14 02:27

古时岭南,那里人类生活特别困难,所以人口是非常少的,那时繁华的中原人口也不多;

岭南最早的是小黑人,后来九黎从中原经湖南迁来,后来越人迁来,黎(俚)人再南迁到海南岛.

而临高人是在越人南迁时,在还未和壮\布依\水等民族分化时就迁到海南岛的越人.所以现在他们自己没有壮族认同,他们不属于黎人,故当然也不会有黎族认同.


作者: 毕兹卡    时间: 2006-1-14 02:30

三亚市羊栏镇的回族人,是从越南占城迁来,但他们的语言不是占城语

是多音节阿拉伯语,变成单音节的语言.这个语言学界已有定论.


作者: 北姑    时间: 2006-1-16 11:40
以下是引用Haeuxseng在2005-12-22 12:30:20的发言:

姑姑的话似乎不对吧?没听说过吴越是百越的源头这样的话。一味的以为强就是头了,这是什么想法啊!

這個是中國歷史以吳越人作為百越的基準而已,越南歷史也是指祖先雒越來自長江以南一帶的耶。

北姑沒有能力去發掘事實,故只能夠引經據典耶。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2006-1-16 11:44
以下是引用在2005-12-22 12:47:54的发言:

强烈反对北姑的这个论断。吴越及岭南一带其它越族人应该是同根生的兄弟民族,并不能说吴越就是百越的源头。只是吴越与华夏文明在地理上较为接近,并参加了中原的称霸,而为华夏民族所认知,并载入史册。而岭南及西南的越人在早期因没有与华夏民族进行接触而没有史料记载,但并不等于他们的古代文明就不存在耶(咦,我怎么也说“耶”了)。

我只能夠說中國歷史之中,百越這個概念是以吳越為始的耶,若果僚人、泰人或其他人有其他資料的話,北姑一樣會引用的耶,不過可惜沒有耶,連越南歷史也是如此說的耶。

而且也只是指文化而不是種族耶,中國歷史也沒有說嶺南百越是來自吳越地區的耶。

嶺南百越也接受了相當的楚國文化耶。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2006-1-16 11:57
以下是引用毕兹卡在2006-1-14 2:30:00的发言:

三亚市羊栏镇的回族人,是从越南占城迁来,但他们的语言不是占城语

是多音节阿拉伯语,变成单音节的语言.这个语言学界已有定论.

根據維基的資料,回輝話就是占城話的演變耶。

跟其他的馬來語一樣,占城話都是包括阿拉伯話成份的耶。


作者: 北姑    时间: 2006-1-16 11:58

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utsul

Utsul

The Utsuls are a tiny ethnic group which lives on the Chinese island of Hainan. They are thought to be descendants of Cham refugees who fled their homeland in what is now southern Vietnam to escape from Annamese invasion.

While most of the Chams who fled Champa went to neighbouring Cambodia, a small business class fled northwards. How they came to acquire the name Utsul is unknown.

Although they are culturally distinct from their neighbours, the Chinese government places them as members of the Hui nationality. They are speakers of the Tsat language.


作者: 北姑    时间: 2006-1-16 11:59

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsat_language

Tsat language

Tsat (also known as Utsat, Utset, Huihui, Hui, or Hainan Cham) is a language spoken on Hainan Island in China by the Utsuls. Tsat is a member of the Malayo-Polynesian group within the Austronesian language family, and is related to the Cham languages, originally from the coast of present-day Vietnam.

Unusually for a Malayo-Polynesian language, Tsat has developed into a solidly tonal language, probably as a result of areal linguistic effects and contact with Chinese, Hlai/Li, and the other tonal languages of Hainan.


作者: 北姑    时间: 2006-1-16 12:24

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aperez7/TONALITY.html

Tonality in Phan Rang Cham and Tsat

The results presented concern the two Chamic languages which have had the greatest contact with tone languages, namely Phan Rang Cham and Tsat. These languages have been under the prolonged influence of Vietnamese and the Min dialects of Chinese respectively. These have undergone a great variety of phonological, morphological and syntactic changes in response to contact with tone languages and the development of bilingual communities that define the forefront of language change.

Monosyllabicity

Although the development of tonality in Asiatic languages is usually associated the simplification of the syllable onset and coda, in Chamic languages, we should first consider the process by which the monosyllables came into being (Haudricourt, 1954; Huffman, 1977; Thompson, 1976). Cham, like all other Malay languages had a characteristic disyllabic (two syllables) word structure. In this system, stress is typically even over both syllables and all vowels in the vowel inventory occur in both syllables. Even before contact with tonal Vietnamese or Chinese languages, we have important evidence for contact with speakers of non-tonal Mon-Khmer languages, confirming the presence of people related to the modern day Khmer living in what is today southern Việt Nam and the Mekong Delta before the arrival of the Cham in the 2nd century and certainly the Vietnamese in the 15th century.

The Mon-Khmer languages exhibit what has been called sesquisyllabicity. While the basic word is disyllabic, the stress has shifted to the second syllable and the vowel of the initial syllable, whatever it may have been originally, is reduced to a neutral schwa [ə], rendering the first syllable an appendage of the central second. This is an important transformation, since it sets the conditions for the loss of the initial syllable through continued weakening and the development of a monosyllabic tone language.

The following chart shows the development from proto-Cham to Western Cham (non-tonal) and Tsat, a fully tonal language:

Syllable Reduction

Proto-Cham W. Cham Tsat

  • picah pacah tsa55 broken

    pluh pluh piu55 ten

    dadit tadi?[†] thi?42 fan

    anak anə? na?24 child

    laŋit laŋi? ŋi?24 sky

    Phan Rang Cham Tonogenesis

    Initial Classes Resulting Register Resulting Tones

    High Tone (final glottal)

    Proto-Chamic High Register

    Non-Voiced Obstruents High Tone (final non-glottal)

    Low Tone (final glottal)

    Proto-Chamic Low Register

    Voiced Obstruents Low Tone (final non-glottal)

    Phan Rang Cham (Eastern Cham) exhibits incipient tonality, that is, many other distinguishing features of the syllable, such as final -h, have not quite disappeared, but it appears to show tonal variation consistent with the model (Han et al., 1992; Thurgood, 1996; Thurgood, 1999). This is not uncontroversial, however, and there are arguments against this model, citing little evidence for the projected loss of final -h and other markers in the future (Brunelle, to appear).

    Tsat Tonogenesis

    Initial Classes Resulting Register Resulting Tones

    55 (final -h)

    Proto-Chamic High Register 24 (final glottal)

    Non-Voiced Obstruents 33 (final voiced)

    55 (final -h)

    Proto-Chamic Low Register 42 (final glottal)

    Voiced Obstruents 11 (final voiced)

    Tsat is spoken by 4 500 speakers on Hải Nam (海南) Island in southern China, Tsat is remarkable for having developed a full tonal system comparable to those of the Southern Min Chinese dialects. As seen in the syllable reduction chart above, Tsat is fully monosyllabic and fully tonal as well having syntactically transformed into what appears typologically as a Chinese language (Thurgood, 1992; Thurgood and Li, 2002; Thurgood and Li, to appear).

    Conclusion

    The data above allow an appreciation of the importance of the Mon-Khmer contact in the development of tones - the reduction from complete polysyllables to sesquisyllabic word roots set the stage for the acquisition of tone through further reduction of the vestigial syllable. This confirms contact between Mon-Khmer and Cham people was extensive prior to the arrival of the Vietnamese, and although most Cham fled the area of the Champa federation in the 15th century, the descendants of the Mon-Khmer remain as the indigenous population of the Mekong Delta (Kampuchea Krom) and the southern highlands.

    The flight of Cham people to southern China, inland Việt Nam and Cambodia was accompanied by further series of changes, each indicative of the new populations these refugees encountered. However, the development of all modern Cham languages can be traced back to the Champa federation period, and represent, in all their variations, a Malay language with considerable Mon-Khmer influence, thus providing linguists with a chronological benchmark for further study and anthropologists a window on the development of a population in the process of linguistic, religious, artistic and political differentiation. Further research could focus on the less studied Chamic languages, including Tsat, but also Jarai and Rhade, which are under considerable pressure as minority languages. Additionally, Western Cham in Cambodia and Eastern Cham in Việt Nam, while not official languages in any capacity, have achieved acceptance as vehicles of communication and education and are in various stages of standardization - a process which involves a certain amount of self-conscious tinkering with the language and would be of interest to socio-linguists. Another possibility would be the study of the disyllabic Jawi Malay languages of Malaysia near the Thai border and Thailand itself. These do not appear to have developed tonality despite centuries of Thai influence. If true, this may provide further evidence for the importance of syllable reduction in tonogenesis, confirming that Cham tonality is not merely a product of Vietnamese and Chinese influences, but instead, the end result of prolonged contact with Mon-Khmer peoples which made tonal developments possible.

    Bibliography

    Brunelle M (to appear) Eastern Cham as a Register Language. Cornell University, Ithaca.

    Han PV, Edmondson J, and Gregerson K (1992) Eastern Cham as a tone language. Mon-Khmer Studies 20:31-43.

    Haudricourt AG (1954) De l'origine des tons en vietnamien. Journal Asiatique 242:69-82.

    Huffman FE (1977) An Examination of Lexical Correspondences between Vietnamese and some other Austroasiatic Languages. Lingua 43:171-198.

    Thompson LC (1976) Proto Viet-Muong Phonology: Austroasiatic Studies II. Manoa: University Press of Hawai'i, pp. 1113-1204.

    Thurgood G (1992) From atonal to tonal in Utsat (a Chamic language of Hainan). Eighteenth Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society, pp. 145-156.

    Thurgood G (1996) Language contact and the directionality of internal "drift": The development of tone and register in Chamic. Language 71:1-31.

    Thurgood G (1999) From ancient Cham to modern dialects: Two thousand years of language contact and change. Manoa: University of Hawai'i Press.

    Thurgood G, and Li F (2002) Contact induced variation and syntactic change in the Tsat of Hainan. Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society.

    Thurgood G, and Li F (to appear) From Malay to Sinitic: The Restructuring of Tsat under Intense Contact. California State University, Chico.


  • Tsat tones are represented by a sequence of two numbers. In this system, 1 is the lowest and 5 is the highest. Together both numbers represent the contour from one pitch level to another. 55 is a level high pitch, 33 is a level middle pitch, 24 is a rising tone etc...

    [†] ? = glottal stop






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